Well up guys, I'm so freaking excited to bring you today's episode with a negotiation expert for women, Dr. Linda Babcock. She is a professor of economics, author of several amazing books and an advocate for putting an end to dead end work for women. Linda is passionate about showing women how to negotiate like a fricking pro for what they actually want, whether it's negotiating a pay raise or figuring out and trying to negotiate with your in laws over the holidays or building the relationship of your dreams. So guys, if you enjoyed this conversation, please, please do leave a review. Let me know what hit you, subscribe to the pod's cast because honestly, that is the best way that you can support. And I actually know what is resonating with you guys. Without further

ado, I want to introduce to you guys the negotiating freaking expert Dr Linda Babcock. Welcome to Women of Impact. Why on earth women are so afraid to ask for what they want. Some people think, oh women just don't have the skill. They don't want to negotiate. But actually the truth is that women get a lot of pushback when they do negotiate. And it's the kind of pushback that men don't get when they negotiate. Because you know, we still have a double standard in our society about what's okay for men to do and what's okay for women to do.

And so women often receive this very harsh negative reaction to when they ask for something that they want. And so women have learned that they may need to hold back in order to not get that really negative reaction. And it's really quite unfair because as you know, negotiation is such a powerful tool and if it's taken away from us then it does this empower us a bit. Yeah that's so powerful and I'd love to actually dive deeper on that because if we have the experience where we try it right and we get pushback that almost teaches us something and so do you think that that's what's happened from younger ages, young girls have tried tried to negotiate or try to ask for what they want? They get pushed back. We kind of accidentally learn the lesson that we get resistance. And so as we get older, we find ourselves in our adulthood now having learned the lesson that we shouldn't negotiate or ask for what we want. Absolutely. And I think you're right. There's two things going on here is that we are experiencing that's pushed back ourselves girls or young women. And we seeing that, you know, perhaps there is a concept, a negative consequence to it. But we also see people talking about other women who they find to be too aggressive. And I'm sure you've heard the words that people use. I've been called them myself. And so we learn, oh, well, you know, she stepped over the line.

I should maybe not do that.

And so we really see from broader society, you know,

experiences of people we know, how it's portrayed in the media,

in films, on TV.

And so we learn that when a woman is perceived as too ambitious

or too aggressive, that that's really negative. And our society is really damaging women by doing this to them. Oh my God, yes. So let's talk, you even just said that we feel like we're crossing the line. And what's super freaking interesting is I wrote a note saying, we are afraid to cross the line. So now I actually want to talk about what is that line? How unirritated we establish this fake line within ourselves? And then how do we start to break what we perceive as that line to be? Yeah, and so I think there's a couple things. One is for ourselves and then what line has society on us that we don't want there. It's a real barrier for women and it's a real problem. And so we have to find a way to combat those lines within ourselves or ones that society has put out there for us. So one of the things I think we can start doing is celebrating a certain women is by saying, yes, I'm glad she negotiated. I'm glad she was strong for herself. And by giving it that air, that these are things that we want women to be doing and not to be doing, I think can help to break down that norm that has been used against us. I'm not that that's so true. So as you were saying, we should start to celebrate. I was really thinking about how many of us women though do it to other women. And so now it kind of becomes, if we're able to start with celebrating that one person, maybe in our lives, and do you think that that will be in short within ourselves. And then it becomes that kind of like effect where now you're affecting other women, other women are affecting other women because that is really difficult. It's a world where growing up for me, strong women were perceived as aggressive. And this was between women and women, not even men and women. It's both really, the research shows that it is other women, but it is also men who are perceiving this. And so if we can stand together as women and celebrate that and say it to our male colleagues, hey, I think this was great that she did this. Why are you having a problem with it? You know, really pushing back on that because that is something that society tolerates for women is that women are allowed to be assertive on behalf of other people. So, you know, when you were being, you know, dist by some man or another woman, I could step in really assertively and say, I'm standing up for her and this is exactly what she be doing. She should be doing and, you know, don't have that negative attitude towards her because she's the woman. Why do we feel it's easier to advocate for somebody else, especially another woman than it is for our own self because, you know, kind of going back to, you know, where we really started as women have a problem for advocating for ourselves, for negotiating to get what we want in life, to speak up, to say what that is. But yet, we actually do find it easier to do it for other women. Yeah. Actually, my research shows that women are much better negotiators for other people than they are from the self. So it's true. Because we have the confidence that my friend deserves it or the person I mentor deserves it or my employee deserves it. And we also know that we're not going to get pushed back for it because again this doesn't cross a normal line because society has deemed it okay for us to say yes I'm going to support this other person and so we don't have that worry about negative pushback because it's really okay for us to advocate for others. Oh God that's so true and at the same time I feel like not advocating for ourselves and worrying about the fact that we may seem like too aggressive or too arrogant. I feel like it's a form of self-sabotage because then we don't go actually after what we want and even see if it's possible. Yeah, you know, it's hard to know. It's self-sabotage if you hold back purposely because you know someone's going to nail you if you cross the line. You know, it might be self-preservation. Oh! That you're looking at it and saying, okay, like weighing the cost and benefits. Like, I'm an economist, okay, so I have to do that. Way cost and benefits. And certainly there's a benefit to negotiating, as you will know. And if the cost is too high, we might actually rationally and correctly say, maybe I'll hold back here. And so I don't want to paint too dismal of a message, though, because there are ways that you can negotiate really effectively that doesn't produce that backlash. And that's really what I've been trying to work on in my career is how women can do that. Oh my God. Thank you for pushing back on that by the way. That was so powerful because you're 100% right. And so now let's actually talk about how we actually begin then to start negotiating. So let's say people are listening right now and they're not advocating for themselves. They're not speaking up whether it's in a relationship or business or even a dynamic with family. many different variables or situations that we can be and what we don't speak up for ourselves, we don't negotiate to actually get what we want. So what is that very first step if someone doesn't even have the confidence in thinking about that they have the right to speak up in the first place? Well, the first part I think is to get your mind right in terms of how you go and think about negotiation. If you think about negotiation as a conflict, as a battle, as a war, as threats, and aggressive behavior is what will work, then you're going to be in big trouble. Because those are techniques that don't work well for men or women. I mean, men have a little more leeway to engage in them without the backlash, but there are definitely a lot of pushback if women use those techniques. So that's not the way to think about negotiation anyway. And fortunately, like decades of negotiation research says the best way to think about negotiation is a cooperative problem-solving activity. When you frame it that way, it isn't so scary,

it isn't so threatening, and it's really more effective

as a way to solve a problem.

Because a negotiation isn't, I make an ask or demand

and then you say something yes or no.

It's a dialogue, right?

It's a back and forth.

How is this going to work?

How can we work it out so it's okay for both of us, especially if you're thinking about a relationship, a long-term relationship, or a long-term business relationship. You wanna keep that relationship central. And so the first thing is to really have that frame of mind to think about it as a dialogue, as a discussion, as something that I'm gonna advocate for myself, but I also wanna think about how you're seeing this and how I'm gonna make it work for you as well. Okay, I love this.

And do- something that I'm going to advocate for myself, but I also want to think about how you're seeing this and how I'm going to make it work for you as well. Okay, I love this and do you mind actually just like telling the audience about the tests that you did with the ask versus the negotiations? So telling women that they can either ask for something on negotiate and how we responded because this actually it just really does highlight what you just said on how words matter. Exactly. Exactly.

And so the word negotiate has this very kind of masculine connotation. It seems competitive and threatening. And so women will back away from negotiation. But if you say ask, because ask is, well, it's going to be a dialogue. We're going to have a, I'm going to ask, you're going to say something. We're going to discuss it. Women are more willing to engage in that ask than in the negotiation in our research. And so again, it's that, it's the how I'm framing this in my head. It's going to really affect my success going forward and, you know,, my willingness to engage in the process at all. Oh my God, I love that because I'm all about like, you may feel nervous, you may feel anxious, you may feel guilty even about thinking that like, oh, can I negotiate this or not? And I'm always trying to get like, what is that first thing that we can do in order to really step into it? So I love the fact of just changing the word negotiate to ask, that's amazing. And then what is that next step that we can start to do into a cess? Because you even said risk and reward. Like what is that first thing that we need to do in order to look at the risk and reward to know if this is something that we feel comfortable negotiating? Yeah one of the things we did in our research is we had women come into it in a negotiation where they actually did a negotiation in our lab. And we either had them come in and prepare for the negotiation and just, you know, negotiate as they would. Or we told them, hey, you know, research shows that women negotiate better for other people than themselves. And so think of of this negotiation as you're planning it, as if you were going to do it for somebody else. Of course, you're going to do it for yourself, but like in the planning, like use that frame of mind, and that help women to really set higher targets and do better in the negotiation than when they just thought of it from the outset for themselves. So again, it's a getting your mind right before you even enter into the negotiation. And that will help you to carry it forward and not concede too quickly. Oh, I love that. How do you then start to assess then? What is the right strategy in the negotiation? Because I assume there's many different types of ways that you can enter a room, bring up the discussion. Is there a right or wrong strategy and if so, what is that first step? Yeah, again, I'm actually going to take a step back because like the most important part of negotiation is what you do before you walk into the room. Okay. So we talked about the language, we talked about sort of getting your mindset. And then the second part is to be really prepared. Okay, to really have said, because that will give you some confidence, your expertise, to go out and ask for what you want. And so what do I mean by research? Well, it just, it depends. Like if you're going to buy a car, of course you would go and scour websites about what cars cost, what other people paid for that car. That's your research, right? If you were going to go negotiate for a salary, you would do the same kinds of things. You know, what are people in this job like mine? What are they getting paid to calibrate what your ask should be? So that research is a really important part of the process so that you feel comfortable knowing that you haven't undersold yourself, but you also haven't asked for a minimum out that was ridiculous, right? So I could go in and ask my boss for a million dollars, probably what I should be paid, but he probably would not think that was very well calibrated as a university professor. So that would not serve me well in the negotiation to start with a target like that. And so I have to be really calibrated to know what's the market for people like me. That's amazing. And then what do you think about your why? How much do you lean into aligning ourselves with our why before we go in? Yeah, the why is really important, at least because suppose that I ask for a particular thing and the person I'm asking actually can't give that to me, but something else would be just as good. If I don't give the why I'm interested in, we can't explore those other options. It's either a yes or a no. So if I'm working at a particular company and I say you know I really want to move to the California office and the California office is just not available but the reason maybe I want to go to California leaflets birch is that maybe I want to see the ocean and if I started with that maybe we could brainstorm that there are other offices maybe the the Miami offices has an opening or some place that I could move. And so the Y is actually really important to solve problems in a negotiation. I love that. Do you mind sharing the stat, which honestly knocked me for six-go? I was like, holy smokes, the world needs to hear this stat about if you don't ask or negotiate your original salary, your base original salary, what that can end up being at the end of your career. It like blew me away. Yeah, and it depends on what level you're starting at, but it can be as much as one and a half million dollars that you're losing over the course of your career. And that's because you're starting with your lower salary. But then most places are giving percent raises, you know, you get 2%, you get 3%, you get 5%, whatever it is inflation, it might be more. Well, that percent is a lower raise because you're, if your salary is lower because you didn't negotiate every raise you get for every year you work is lower. And that adds up over time. And if you saved all that money that you made, would have made from doing that negotiation, you could have a huge amount of money at the end of your career. Now, women that are a little older like myself don't despair. It's not too late. You had at the beginning of your career, you know Anytime during your career, you can find an opportunity to recalibrate and reassess and really go she. Thank you for giving the shining light to everybody listening. The reason why I thought it was really important, though, to talk about that, is because it really does highlight. It's not just you negotiating right now and what you're going get out of that speaking up saying what you want right now. It does actually become a long tail thing of how that, by you holding back, but you're not saying what you think, but you're not speaking up, but you're not negotiating, actually has that massive knock on effect. That in 20, 30 years, you realize, oh, that one time that I didn't over here actually has this impact. And so the data point is so interesting to me because now I start to think about what that looks like in a relationship where you're, you know, in your first year of your relationship and you let things go, you're kind of sacrificing and you don't speak up and what that looks like. But you're not speaking up on a go-shading what you want or what that relationship should look like, what that can end up looking like in 10 years. Exactly, and those things can add up because you give a little this time, and so your partner expects that that's the way you're gonna be in the future, and so you can be locked into that pattern. So it's very important in a relationship or any kind of relationship, a business relationship, romantic relationship, a partnership with an employer to have that negotiation instead of precedent for, I'm a person that can have a dialogue about this, we can discuss it, we can understand both of our needs, we can figure out a solution that works for us both.

That is an asset. I mean, think about engaging in that as an asset that will build, you know, bear fruit as the relationship grows. Because you'll have that to be able to come back to. This is something where we can discuss when we see things differently. We can reach a resolution and we can move on. I love it so much. Okay, I really, really want to talk about the no club and how on earth as women we can get better at saying no. And so the no club that your book that you wrote is fantastic and you really do freaking layout girl. Like all these very tactical ways of actually saying no. And so I really want to start with How do you know what you should be saying yes or no to in the first place because as women I can actually just speak for myself. The inclination is to always say yes because I want to be liked, I want to be accepted, I want the pets in the back, I want the validation. And so over my 42 years of being on this earth, I've learned that saying yes gets me a certain feeling from other people and saying no gets me another certain feeling where people don't welcome you as warmly. So I've learned to try and say yes as much as possible, like a lot of women do. So now how do we actually know, I'm not saying that we should say no to everything, right? But how do we start to know and assess what is a yes and what is a no in our lives?

Yeah, it's such a great point. The feeling that a yes brings versus a no because what someone is expecting, we expect women to say yes when we ask for their help, ask for them to do something for us, we expect a yes and so a no feels bad because we know that that's not what someone is expecting. You know, to kind of double down on that though,

the other thing that happens is that women are asked

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