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The Ezra Klein Show

If Not This, Then What Should Israel Do?

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 31 October 2023

⏱️ 64 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

“Two things are true: Israel must do something, and what it’s doing now is indefensible.” So writes Zack Beauchamp, a senior correspondent at Vox. Almost a month has passed since Hamas fighters slaughtered over 1,400 people in Israel and the state mounted its furious response. For weeks, Israel has laid siege to Gaza, cutting off water and electricity to the tiny strip of land and carrying out airstrikes that have reportedly killed over 8,000 Palestinians. On Friday a ground invasion began, and the response across much of the globe has been horror. If Israel continues down this road, the cost in Palestinian lives, and in support for Israel, will be immense. The question that hangs over the criticism is this: What, then, should Israel do? What would be a moral response to Hamas’s savagery and to the very real need Israelis have for security? Beauchamp, who has covered Israel extensively in recent years, set out to answer that question. He spoke with counterterrorism experts, military historians, experts on Hamas, ethicists and more. I found his piece “What Israel Should Do Now” one of the best I’ve read since Oct. 7. So I asked him to join me on the show. Book Recommendations: A High Price by Daniel Byman The Selected Works of Edward Said, 1966 – 2006 by Edward W. Said The Accidental Empire by Gershom Gorenberg Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Efim Shapiro.

Transcript

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0:00.0

From New York Times' opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show.

0:23.2

So on Friday, Israel began its ground war in Gaza.

0:25.9

They cut all other communications for 34 hours, creating chaos, not just for Hamas, but

0:31.3

for the vast majority of the more than 2 million Palestinians who live in Gaza.

0:36.3

I found this line in the New York Times pretty tough.

0:39.3

Quote, they had no way to know whether their loved ones were alive or dead.

0:44.0

Emergency phone lines stopped ringing.

0:46.5

Desperate paramedics tried to save people by driving toward the sound of explosions.

0:50.7

Wounded people were left to die in the street.

0:54.7

Imagine hearing or seeing an explosion, not far from you and not being able to call

0:59.5

your relatives who live there.

1:02.5

Palestinian health officials say that more than 8,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed

1:06.1

since October 7th.

1:07.1

And I want to note here that there is a fog of war.

1:10.5

It is possibly numbers are wrong.

1:12.1

It is also of course possible that particularly by the end of this, these numbers will be much

1:15.2

higher.

1:16.6

But if you take something like the 8,000 numbers right, well then one way the horror of October

1:21.0

7th was driven home.

1:22.4

One way its scale was driven home to Americans was to put it in terms of 9,000 11s.

1:27.7

Adjusting for population, Joe Biden said it was like 15, 9,000 11s.

1:31.0

If you take that same math, then Gaza's experience so far around 400, 9,000 11s.

...

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