I’ve Defended The Guilty & The Innocent for 30 Years — Here’s What I’ve Learned | Norm Pattis

Locked In with Ian Bick

Ian Bick

Society & Culture

4.8 • 743 Ratings

🗓️ 20 November 2025

⏱️ 67 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Norm Pattis is one of America’s most fearless and outspoken trial lawyers — a champion of the marginalized who has built his career defending clients in some of the highest-stakes criminal and civil rights cases in the country. With over 150 jury trials and admissions to federal courts including the U.S. Supreme Court, he’s earned a reputation as one of the fiercest defenders of the Constitution and free speech. Known for taking on controversial cases and clients that others refuse to touch, Norm has spent over 30 years fighting against government overreach and injustice. In this conversation, he opens up about the realities of the criminal justice system, what it truly means to defend the guilty and the innocent, and the personal toll of standing up for what’s right in a system built to break you. #LockedInWithIanBick #TrueCrime #CriminalJustice #DefenseAttorney #LawAndOrder #CourtroomStories #JusticeSystem #realstories Thank you to BLUECHEW & K9S.ORG for sponsoring this episode: BlueChew: Visit https://bluechew.com/ and use promo code LOCKEDIN at checkout to get your first month of BlueChew & pay five bucks for shipping. K9s.org: Donate anytime at https://k9s.org/ Connect with Norm Pattis: https://www.pattispazlaw.com/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 – Intro: Who Is Norm Pattis? What Makes a Trial Lawyer Great 03:10 – Norm Pattis: Early Life, Background & Career Start 07:11 – College to Law School: How Norm Found His Calling 11:25 – Discovering Criminal Defense & Why It Hooked Him 13:50 – How Trial Lawyers Choose Clients & Case Strategy 17:37 – Social Media, Jury Pools & Modern High-Profile Cases 21:09 – The Media, Public Opinion & How It Impacts Trials 25:01 – Going to Trial: Tough Cases, Strategy & Client Decisions 31:05 – Juries Explained: Psychology, Testimony & Mirroring 36:26 – Federal vs State Court: Public Defenders, CJA & Differences 42:00 – Losing Cases, The Justice System & Prison Sentences 47:00 – The “Trial Tax,” Plea Deals & Sentencing Realities 52:21 – Pro Bono Work, Crowdfunding & Taking the Right Cases 55:55 – AI in Law: Helpful Tools, Risks & Hallucinations 01:00:00 – Sentencing, Pre-Sentence Reports & What Judges Consider 01:05:00 – Norm Pattis: Biggest Lessons After 30 Years in the Courtroom Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	I'm competitive. So when I hear about a case, I'm thinking I should have that case.
0:06.4	Do you have rules before you take on a client? Like, do you look for specific attributes in a client before agreeing to take him or her on?
0:12.7	I think it's one of the great lies that we tell ourselves and we hold our nose and we bury our heads in the sand and pretend to it and we ignore reality.
0:20.9	What do you think is the most important aspect of a criminal trial?
0:23.6	Consider for a moment what a trial is.
0:25.6	We say that the government has the entire burden of proof.
0:29.0	The defendant didn't prove anything.
0:30.9	And we say in federal, and I think in state courts now, too, as a result of a recent Supreme
0:36.0	Court case, the state has
0:37.6	to prove its case unanimously.
0:39.4	In other words, all six or 12 jurors must agree.
0:42.7	So the government puts its case on and the jury says, we can't agree.
0:46.7	Why doesn't the defendant win at that point?
0:48.7	Norm Patis has defended the guilty, the innocent, and everyone in between for over 30 years.
0:53.8	He's one of the most controversial
0:55.1	and fearless trial lawyers in America, taking on the cases no one else would touch. From high-profile
1:01.2	defendants to everyday people crushed by the system, Norm has seen exactly how justice
1:05.7	really works, and he's not afraid to call it out.
1:12.7	Norm, welcome to Lockton.
1:14.1	Thanks so much for coming on the show today.
1:16.6	And thanks to Christy for graciously connecting us.
1:17.0	Yeah, no.
	...

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