Welcome to indoctrination, a weekly conversation series about protecting yourself from systems of control.

I'm your host, Rachel Bernstein.

Hi, everybody. Today we have part three of my conversation with Erin and Rachel Alder. For those who have been listening and who have

gotten very involved in their story and really care, I'm sure that you'll be happy to know.

There is a third episode, but sad to know that it's the last one. And they are, of course,

invited back to share more of their story if there's more

that they want to share. I want to say, too, before I introduce them that this series of episodes

has touched a lot of people. Not only have I been contacted by other people who have been in this

very same offshoot that Rachel and

Aaron were involved in, but also people who have been harmed by 12-step experiences and by

AA, some of whom who really have moved away from 12-step and AA, others who are still involved, but realized

that there are inherent dangers or the potential for danger without enough safeguards,

which is something that Rachel and Aaron and I are going to talk about towards the end of

this episode. I truly want people to be

able to have an experience that is more connected to updated senses of scientific discovery

about addiction and also that not everyone needs to call themselves an addict in

order to be able to get help and not everyone needs to believe in God in order to get help.

It needs to be done in a more tailor-made way like it's done with groups like smart recovery and others like it. But really,

unfortunately, when this system was put in place, there were not safeguards put in place. So

this is not at all meant to have you move away from your 12-step group or your A-A group if that is

what's helping you and nothing bad has been happening and you're not in danger and you're

surrounded with people who really do care and also are sensitive to and respectful of your boundaries. But I do think it is problematic when for some people

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