And that's what narcissistic people do. They shut the lines of communication through manipulations that wasn't my intention to gaslight it. There's nowhere to go at that point. So the relationship lacks intimacy because there's no share. If I was enough, he would love me. If I was enough, he wouldn't cheat on me. If I was enough. This aching feeling of not being enough is coming with someone who is in a relationship with a narcissist, but you stay. You keep making excuses. You keep hoping they will change, but no matter what you do, how hard you try, they just get angry, they lash out, they gas like you, leaving you feeling insecure and not enough. Now on the flip side, these days we seem to be throwing around the word narcissism like it's confetti on New Year's Eve. The second someone displays even a trait, we immediately slap on the narcissistic label and ship them off to narcissism bill with no return address. But today's Women of Impact, a licensed clinical psychologist, Professor of Psychology, a distinguished speaker and sought after expert with appearances on red table talks, CNN, Oprah Forbes, and New York Times to say the least is here to explain and break down the science and characteristics we can look out for. The behavior that can accurately identify a true narcissist so that we can then make the decision to stay or leave with our eyes wide open. So guys please help me welcome the best-selling author of Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a relationship with a narcissist. The narcissism expert herself, Dr. Romani. Hello and nice to be welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Of course, I am beyond on it. And I just want to absolutely dive deep into this subject in order for us to be able to identify so that when we either go in a relationship, start a relationship or continue a relationship, we just do it with our eyes wide open. And so where I would like to start is for you to break down the full types of narcissists. I think there's actually more than four. So you're asking for more than you're bargain for. So there's sort of the classical grandiose narcissist. And this is often what we think of as sort of the textbook, arrogant, charming, charismatic, confident, you know, sort of really holds the room. And while initially they're incredibly enticing, right? Because there's so much larger than life, they can often be quite successful. Before long, probably in anywhere if you're dating them between four and 12 weeks, the blush is going to fall off the rose kind of thing. And it's going to be that they're much more, you'll see that they're getting bored with you, that their superficiality really becomes problematic. They are very contemptuous and dismissive and invalidating largely because they're so insecure. We go then to the covert narcissist. The covert narcissist is much more vulnerable, sullen, angry at the world. And instead of the big arrogant entitlement, what you tend to see more of is it's an angry, victimized entitlement. Like the world never gives me what I want. Everybody's against me, everyone's out to get me. And so there's just sort of a, it gets heavy, entire sum. But initially covert narcissists feel very anxious like you want to rescue them. then there are the malignant narcissists. The malignant narcissists are probably the most dangerous of the narcissists. Not only do they have all the usual qualities of narcissism, the lack of empathy, the entitlement, the grandiosity, all of that, they also are very exploitative, they can be paranoid, they're sadistic, there is a much more. You're more likely to see sort of if not Physical violence a lot more emotional abuse in these relationships. People feel very menaced and unsettled. You might see more coerce of control here. The fourth kind of narcissist is someone we call a communal narcissist. The communal narcissist cares very much about being viewed by the public as a as a savior or a rescuer. I'm rescuing animals. I'm making this important documentary. I'm so important what I do for the world is so important. And so the world often, they get their validation. The communal narcissist has all the usual stuff of narcissism, but they get their validation by being viewed as a do-gooder or a humanitarian or something like that. But they're actually just as interpersonally difficult as any of the other narcissistic people, but people will often miss it because they look so wonderful. There's been the GLECTFUL narcissist. These are the narcissistic relationships where you're literally not even seen. It's as though, unless they need you, it's almost like my coffee cup. I'm not going to notice my coffee cup unless I need my coffee. But otherwise, I'm not going to pay attention to it all day. They tend to view people through that lens of seeing them as conveniences and objects they turn to when they need them. They almost have very little need for people unless it's forwarding their cause. And people in these relationships will literally feel as though they're invisible and completely unseen. Then, there's the self-righteous narcissist. The self-righteous narcissist actually initially seemed really moralistic and loyal. Whether that moralism comes through like religion or commitment to like the cause and there's a right way and there's a wrong way to do things that are incredibly judgmental of other people. Self-righteous narcissists tend to live very well-ordered lives, so they'll mock the way other people eat the way they dress if they didn't go to the right school, if they don't live in the right place. And so people in relationships with self-righteous narcissists feel like they're always the 12-year-old child who's being scolded for their bad habits. So there's actually more than the goal. Yeah, that was so amazing.

I have so many questions.

So let's even just take the last one. As you were describing it, I also think of it as like, wow, that's also the behavior of someone that's extremely insecure in themselves. So they're putting someone else down because they're insecure. But would you say that if someone's insecure, they're directly a narcissist. How would you separate the tune, go, wow,

they're a narcissist or they're just wounded,

they're insecure and, they're directly a narcissist, how would you separate the tune, go, wow, they're a narcissist or they're just wounded, they're insecure, and so they're doing that to protect themselves. OK, so everybody's insecure. I can count on one hand the number of human beings I've met on this planet who are just simply secure in themselves. Because here's the bottom line. Secure people don't lash out at other people, right? Secure people will say, I know who I am, and I know what I stand for, and they know they're not always gonna get it right. They're not always trying to overcompensate. They apologize when they're wrong, and they've never deliberately, and again, lash out or attack another person. They have empathy. So I always say it's the difference between the pathologically insecure and the conventionally insecure. The conventionally insecure is all the rest of us, right? It's the people who have, we all have wounds. And those wounds are often where we're not graceful or we get really stressed out or we get upset. The difference is, is're conventionally insecure and you say the wrong thing. Maybe you bite someone's head off. Maybe you respond in a way that's very reactive and unkind. Maybe you don't check in on someone's feelings. A conventionally insecure person will detect that rather quickly and say, I should not have said that. And while it's time to make amends very quickly and say,

let's say you and I had an argument and I snapped your head off and I'd call you back and say, Lisa, what I did, I'm so sorry, that was not your responsibility or your problem. I had a tough day, but that wasn't your problem. And I'm so sorry. And again, my excuse is not even meant to be a way to get out of this. I'm telling you about my day, but at the end of the day I hurt you, and I'm sorry.

That's what a conventionally, healthfully insecure person would do.

A pathologically insecure person. That ends up getting coupled with all this narcissistic stuff, the lack of empathy, the entitlement, the grandiosity, the validation seeking. All of those narcissistic defenses, they protect that insecurity. That's not a conventionally insecure person will say, I know what my insecurities are. I'm insecure about my weight or the amount of money I have or my job. I know that about myself. And so I know that when I'm in certain groups of people, I'm not at my best. And a conventionally insecure person might even make decisions accordingly saying, I don't know if I want to go to your fancy party tonight. Like that's not crew, I don't feel good. And they'll make their choices accordingly. So that a conventionally insecure person can be reflective. They can be empathic. They can be aware of what their wounds are. They can make amends for when they get it wrong. You see the difference? So yeah, I agree that narcissistic people are wounded. I will never disagree with that. In fact, more than a few of them have had traumatic backgrounds,

but that's not an excuse for your present behavior. You don't get to say, I'm wounded. And that's where you get out of jail free card. It doesn't work that way. I understand that you're wounded. Go do the work, okay? Go do the work before you take this out and other people and expect everyone to be your enabler,

while you lash out at them because of your wounds.

That's not acceptable.

God, I love how you break that down because there is sometimes such a fine line. It was kind of like what I was saying in my intro where they're all really true narcissists and it can be very detrimental to a person if they're in a relationship with them. But then there's also the side of people now just kind of labeling anybody that shows one trait of a narcissist. So what do you think are misconceptions

that people currently have on what narcissism is or how to even identify someone that is? So traditionally a major misconception about narcissism is that it was self-love, that these are people who were in love with themselves and love to look in the mirror.

They even looked at the myth of Narcissus

and how he fell in love with his reflection and all of that. Nothing could be farther for the truth. They don't love themselves. In fact, they despised themselves more than the rest of us might actually not like ourselves. Like they really, really, it is a disorder of sort of self-hate, of deep insecurity, of dysregulation, and everything is about this fear of sort of their

de- of self hate, of deep insecurity, of disregulation, and everything is about this fear of their deficits getting found out of the world seeing that they ain't all that, right? But they're not in touch with any of this. So you can't play to that and say, I get it, you know, you have these vulnerabilities and they'll say, how dare you tell me I have vulnerability to you, connect with that, right?

So the misconception is that they love themselves.

Well, let's clear that off the decks.

They look in the mirror a lot to play into that validation seeking

because they're so superficial.

Their emotions don't go deep, right?

And because if their emotions went deep,

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