How to escape all-or-nothing thinking
What's Up Docs?
BBC
4.4 • 659 Ratings
🗓️ 11 November 2025
⏱️ 29 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Welcome to What’s Up Docs?, the podcast where doctors and identical twins Chris and Xand van Tulleken cut through the confusion around every aspect of our health and wellbeing.
In this episode, Chris and Xand dive into the concept of ‘all-or-nothing’ thinking. What does it really mean, and why are our brains drawn to this black-and-white way of seeing the world? They explore how it shows up in everyday life, whether it can ever be helpful, and share practical strategies for recognising and challenging it. They also reflect on their own experiences with this mindset.
Joining them to discuss this is Kimberley Wilson, Chartered Psychologist, author, and host of the new mental health podcast, Complex.
If you want to get in touch, you can email us at whatsupdocs@bbc.co.uk or WhatsApp us on 08000 665 123.
Presenters: Drs Chris and Xand van Tulleken Guest: Kimberley Wilson Producer: Maia Miller-Lewis Executive Producer: JRami Tzabar Editor: Jo Rowntree Researcher: Grace Revill Tech Lead: Reuben Huxtable Social Media: Leon Gower Digital Lead: Richard Berry Composer: Phoebe McFarlane Sound Design: Ruth Rainey
At the BBC: Assistant Commissioner: Greg Smith Commissioning Editor: Rhian Roberts
A Loftus Media production for BBC Radio 4
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. |
| 0:07.5 | It's like going into an ice path with your hands as the ice. |
| 0:10.8 | In 2025, we were here for the entertainment. |
| 0:13.8 | Ellis and John. |
| 0:14.9 | Have you not considered just coffee, which is what I do? |
| 0:17.6 | Sightracked with Annie and Nick. |
| 0:19.4 | Stevie Wonder, welcome. I'm pleasure. Loyal Carnar is with us. We want to hearract with Annie and Nick. Stevie Wonder, welcome. |
| 0:21.4 | My pleasure. Loyal Carnery is with us. Want to hear all about Glastonbury. And Celebrity Traitors Uncloaked. Welcome to Uncloaked, Ireland. Oh, thanks for having me, Ed. The winner. I know, still hasn't sunk in. Get the best of 2025 with podcasts on BBC Sounds. |
| 0:41.7 | Hello and welcome to What's Up Docs. I'm Dr Chris. |
| 0:47.1 | And I'm Dr. Zand and for BBC Radio 4, we careen into the complex and conflicted world of health and well-being. |
| 0:48.3 | We're going to sort the fact from the fiction about how we can best look after our minds |
| 0:52.8 | and our bodies. |
| 0:54.1 | From things like how nature is good for us to false memories, to our fibre intake. |
| 0:59.4 | And today's Andy, we're picking up on a topic that came up in our episode on difficult conversations with Kimberly, Kimberly Wilson. |
| 1:07.0 | And that's all or nothing thinking. |
| 1:12.8 | That's right, Chris. |
| 1:13.9 | It's got loads of different names. |
| 1:16.1 | Absoluteist thinking, binary thinking, black and white thinking. |
| 1:19.9 | Very often, it is easier and more comfortable to frame things in life as either right or wrong, good and bad. |
| 1:27.2 | The shades of grey are difficult. |
| 1:29.3 | And personally, I'm all for it. I like the simplicity. I think it's terrible. No, but without any |
| 1:35.7 | nuance, I think it's basically a good thing. I like spent a while thinking about this episode, |
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