Hey, everyone is Andrew Claven with this week's interview with Joe Bartosh and Robert Jessel,

who have written an intense and

amazing book called Pornocracy.

Joe is a journalist, woman's rights advocate, an assistant editor of the critic.

Robert is a communications consultant, a campaigner for free speech and LGBT rights.

And you may notice that these are not the usual credentials of people

who come on this show, though I invite them often. And what fascinated me about this book is we

come at it from different angles, my far more conservative angle. And yet we seem to have

complete agreement on the fact that pornography, which used to be a giggly little vice for 13-year-old

boys, has now become a sort of culvert gushing, an amazing amount of toxin into our society,

utterly destructive. And this book is an expose of why it's so hard to get rid of something

that is so destructive. Joe and Robert, thank you both

for coming on. Thank you so much for inviting us. Really appreciate it. No, I'm thrilled to get to

talk to you. I just, this book, as I was saying before the camera went on, I can't say that I

enjoyed it because it's a very intense experience, but it's really well researched and really well

reasoned. Maybe we can start, because you're in England and you're talking about a slightly

different culture, maybe you could start by just explaining the state of play. Where are you

in Great Britain with pornography? What is it like there for this industry, I guess we'll call it?

We seem to be taking sort of two steps forward, one step back all the time. So there've

been some really useful legislative changes recently. So we've had the introduction of age

verification, which happened since the publication of the book. And that's been really, really

good in terms of, you know, stopping children just

...