How ICE Became Trump’s Secret Army

The David Frum Show

The Atlantic

Politics, News, News Commentary

4.6 • 2.4K Ratings

🗓️ 20 August 2025

⏱️ ? minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum begins with reflections on how Donald Trump’s sweeping immigration crackdown has transformed America into what he calls a “society based on fear.” Frum warns that the president’s methods risk discrediting not just immigration enforcement, but also law, police, and the very idea of democratic legitimacy. Then Frum is joined by his Atlantic colleague Caitlin Dickerson, whose Pulitzer Prize–winning reporting has laid bare the human and institutional realities of immigration enforcement. They discuss her latest investigation into the staggering expansion of ICE and the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, which has supercharged its budget to unprecedented levels. Dickerson explains how billions of dollars in new funding are fueling mass detention, empowering private-prison companies, and reshaping U.S. diplomacy while failing to solve the core challenges of immigration. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0	Okay, so what if you could listen to all your books, docs, PDFs, and articles?
0:04.6	Well, you can.
0:05.8	With the 11 Reader app, you can turn anything into natural-sounding voice, like this one.
0:11.4	So download 11 Reader for free on your favorite app store today.
0:15.1	Music Hello, and welcome back to the David Fromm show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at the Atlantic.
0:32.9	My guest this week will be Caitlin Dickerson, a colleague of mine at the Atlantic, who has won
0:37.6	the Pulitzer Prize for her reporting on immigration, and we will be discussing today the astonishing
0:43.1	growth of the immigration enforcement apparatus in the United States under the Trump presidency.
0:48.2	I want to open with some personal reflections of my own on the immigration subject.
0:52.8	As those of you who have followed my work
0:54.3	in the Atlantic may know, I have written about this topic over many, many years. And my sympathies
1:00.3	have broadly been with the need for stricter immigration control than the United States has seen
1:04.8	in the recent past. In January of 2021, shortly after President Biden took office, I read an article
1:10.7	that worried that
1:12.0	his continuing a lax approach to immigration in the United States would prove a consequential
1:17.4	mistake overshadowing his entire administration. And unfortunately, that turned out to be correct.
1:22.7	Immigration enforcement under President Biden remained very lax almost at the end of the administration.
1:27.2	And indeed, immigration was one of the administration, and indeed
1:27.5	immigration was one of the most important issues that defeated Kamala Harrison elected Donald Trump in
1:32.3	2024. Since Donald Trump took office in 2025, we have seen an astonishing, breathtaking
1:38.9	crackdown on immigration in the United States. You can read the effect of that crackdown
1:43.9	in the statistics.
	...

Please login to see the full transcript.

Previous episode | Next episode

Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from The Atlantic, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.

Generated transcripts are the property of The Atlantic and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.