How Hard Is It to Untie a Knot?
The Quanta Podcast
Quanta Magazine
4.7 • 638 Ratings
🗓️ 9 December 2025
⏱️ 26 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
In math and science, knots do far more than keep shoes on feet. For more than a century, mathematicians have studied the properties of different knots and been rewarded by a wide range of useful applications across science. Classifying how some knots are different from others is an important part of this work.
Earlier this year, two mathematicians found that a theory for how to differentiate between knots is false. In fact, they found infinitely many counterexamples that prove that this method for studying knots does not work the way it’s supposed to. In this episode, contributing writer Leila Sloman joins editor in chief Samir Patel to tell the story of how the unknotting number came unraveled.
Audio coda courtesy of Zinadelphia.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | By 1876, we had a pretty good idea that matter is made up of chemical elements and that |
| 0:10.1 | there's a basic form of those elements that we call atoms. What atoms are, however, wasn't so clear |
| 0:16.3 | then. Many scientists at the time still believed in this idea of the ether or some mysterious substance that filled space. |
| 0:23.8 | And it was against this backdrop that William Thompson, later known as Lord Kelvin, |
| 0:29.1 | came up with what is called the vortex theory of the atom. |
| 0:33.2 | In this idea, atoms are made up of vortices like tornadoes, connected at the ends like a smoke ring. |
| 0:39.9 | Building on the work of others, Kelvin posited that the atoms of different elements were the result of different kinds of knots in the vortex rings that are spinning in the ether. |
| 0:50.2 | It was a popular theory, but not for long, since it wasn't able to explain very much, |
| 0:55.0 | but it did inspire another mathematician and physicist, Peter Guthrie Tate, to think about |
| 1:00.8 | and classify these imaginary knots. |
| 1:04.0 | The result, eventually, was an entire field of math that we now call knot theory. |
| 1:09.8 | It's turned out to have wide application across |
| 1:12.3 | the sciences, and it's also remained a subject of fascination for mathematicians, because trying |
| 1:18.2 | to understand these knots can be just as befuddling as untying a badly tangled shoelace. |
| 1:29.6 | Welcome to the Quanta podcast, where we Welcome to the Quantum Podcast, where we explore the frontiers of fundamental science and math. |
| 1:34.1 | I'm Samir Patel, editor-in-chief of Quantum Magazine. |
| 1:38.3 | Knot theory is one of these areas of math that has a simple, basic element. |
| 1:43.4 | You can create any one of these knots with a length |
| 1:46.1 | of string and some tape and a ton of patience, but it conceals endless complexity. And that's exactly |
| 1:53.1 | the theme of a recent story on Quanta called A Simple Way to Measure Knots has come unraveled. The author |
| 1:59.2 | of that piece, frequent quantum contributor |
| 2:01.2 | Layla Sloman, is here with us today to talk about knot theory and why just when things |
... |
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