Hi, I'm Dr. Scott Hon, and I want to welcome you to the Road to Amas, a podcast from the St. Paul Center, and I am joined once again by Clement Harold, a dear friend,

and someone with whom I have been struggling over the problem of evil, the mystery of suffering.

Clem, welcome back.

Thank you, Dr. Hahn. Great to be back.

So this is really the second half of a conversation that we began yesterday.

We were talking about a lot of matters that pertain to the mystery of suffering, evil,

but particularly as they relate to Jesus on the cross.

And we were trying to distinguish carefully the Protestant view historically, which is penal substitution.

That is, Jesus is bearing the wrath of the father, who looks down from heaven and sees not his son, but our sin.

Versus the view of St. Anselm in Cureus Homo, Why the Godman and St. Thomas Aquinas and the Summa, the Terseobars, and in a lot of really good work that we find among Catholic theologians today, although I wouldn't say that they have sort of captured the scene. They still are, this is difficult.

And we had you here for our Applied biblical studies conference

to speak on the Gospel of John

and how God's glory is unveiled

in the last place you'd expect to find it,

in the least likely manifestation, that the cross is what, an epiphany of the inner life of the Trinity?

I mean, I hate to start, you know, usually you go from zero to 60, and I feel like we're starting around 50 miles an hour here.

But why don't you recap and then also take this

in a direction that you think might be helpful? Absolutely. Yeah, thank you. And yeah,

very much enjoyed our conversation yesterday. And glad to have a part two. And we could,

I think we could talk about this for hours. I like how you frame that there that I think that the way that we think about

what we call the atonement as Catholics. And atonement is one of those rare theological words

that's actually English in origin, at one meant. That's really what it means. It's about our

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