Many of the failed states we see in the world today, these are the result of unnecessary Western

interventions for which the West has never been held accountable. So when the West comes along and

says, gosh, we are so saintly and virtuous, we look at them and we see an emperor with no clothes.

This is why I want to turn to China, because again, isn't this a relationship that Europe and America are potentially getting catastrophically wrong?

What do you think it should be doing?

Well, I'm going to give away a huge secret.

Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I'm Christian Giro Murthy, and this is the podcast

in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have helped shape them.

My guest today is the veteran diplomat, scholar and global thinker, Kishul Mububani, a man who has spent

decades at the heart of the world's shifting balance of power.

Born into poverty in Singapore, he rose through the country's foreign service to become its ambassador to the United Nations, and then president of the UN Security Council.

Across his career, Mububani has been both participant and provocateur.

In countless articles and books, he has challenged what he sees as Western complacency,

warned of the irreversible rise of Asia, and argued that the global order must adapt to a world

no longer dominated by Europe and the United States.

And now it appears Western leaders have caught up with him as a new world order is declared in the wake of the rupture of President Trump's second term.

Kishul Mubibani, welcome to ways to change the world.

You are especially critical of Europe and European leadership.

What is it you think Europe has failed to understand about the way the world is changing?

Well, I mean, I feel very sad for Europe.

And by the way, I'm not an enemy of Europe.

I mean, I'm a friend of Europe.

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