Welcome to Current Affairs. My name is Nathan Robinson. I am the editor-in-chief of Current Affairs magazine. My guest today is Tom Wetzel. He is the author of Overcoming Capitalism

Strategy for the Working Class in the 21st Century, coming out from AK Press in July. Tom,

nice to talk to you. Nice to be here. So the book, this book, this book,

overcoming capitalism is a primer on on anti-capitalist politics and strategy for our time.

Robin Honnell says in the blurb on this book that's written in plain English and free of leftist jargon.

It's full of common sense as well as nuance and that you've produced a gem of a book.

I'm excited because I have been following the progress of the writing of this book through our Facebook friendship over the years.

And congratulations on it, first first and foremost because overcoming capitalism is

quite a masterpiece. Thank you. So let's start with, you know, your book has several

components to it. The first component is laying out the basic critique of capitalism, and then talking about the strategy

component of how to be an effective leftist, how we can, in fact, overcome capitalism.

Your book is written for a non-academic audience. Any literate person should be able to pick up and read and enjoy this book.

So let's start with the very basics, the broad critique of capitalism.

What you think is at the core of the problem with capitalism that necessitates the strategy

that you lay out in the course of the book. Where do you begin when you encounter people who say,

you know, well, I don't see the problem with capitalism. Where do you, where do you begin in persuading them of the left critique? I usually start with the, I think, the very basic

structure of capitalism that is rooted in class oppression and exploitation. And there are elements

to what class oppression is. What makes that up?

There's the fact that the working class are people who don't have their own means to livelihood,

and therefore we're forced to go and seek jobs for employers,

where we have to submit to these autocratic managerialist regimes, right?

We don't have any say over the work, so we're denied self-management of even how our own

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