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Capitalisn't

How Democrats Forgot To Be Normal, with Joan Williams

Capitalisn't

University of Chicago Podcast Network

Stigler Center, Chicago Booth, Socialism, Antitrust, University Of Chicago Podcast Network, Growth, 087667, Policy, Monopoly, Professors, Distortion, Research, Competition, Capitalisnt, Inequality, Promarket, Politics, Policymaking, Special Interest, Economics, Efficiency, Regulations, Chicago, Business, Markets, University Of Chicago, Kate Waldock, Capitalism, Friction, Bethany Mclean, Government, Macroeconomics, News, Education, Waldock, Georgetown, Microeconomics, Luigi Zingales, Zingales, Finance, Ucpn

4.5 • 584 Ratings

🗓️ 29 May 2025

⏱️ 44 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Back in 2016, Joan Williams, distinguished professor of law (emerita) at UC Law San Francisco, wrote an essay for the Harvard Business Review on why President Donald Trump attracted so many non-college voters. It went viral with almost four million views, becoming the most-read article in the 90-year history of the publication. Williams’ new book, Outclassed: How the Left Lost the Working Class and How to Win Them Back, outlines how the seemingly common view that her fellow progressives must abandon their social causes to win back those non-college-educated voters is wrong. What is required, she argues, is a renewed understanding of class. She introduces her conceptualization of the “diploma divide,” or the gap between Americans with and without college degrees. Her worldview divides the electorate into three class-based groups: the college-educated, upper-class “Brahmin left”, the low-income working (middle) class, and the right-wing merchant class, which pushes for economic policies that benefit the rich. Her argument is that a new coalition between the latter two has shifted politics to the right. In this week’s Capitalisn’t episode, Luigi and Bethany invite Williams to discuss whether our society indeed breaks down so neatly. If it does, how does her breakdown help us understand recent electoral shifts and trends in populism and why the left is on the losing end of both? As she writes in her book and discusses in the episode, “[the Brahmin] left’s anger is coded as righteous. Why is non-elite anger discounted as “grievance?” Together, their conversation sheds light on how the left can win back voters without compromising on progressive values.Over the last four years, Capitalisn’t has interviewed conservative thinkers like Oren Cass, Patrick Deneen, and Sohrab Ahmari to understand how the political right developed a new platform after President Joe Biden’s victory in 2020. With this episode, we begin the same project with the left by asking: What could be the economic basis for a new progressive platform?

Transcript

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0:00.0

And I have to stop asking what's the matter with Kansas and start asking what's the matter with Cambridge.

0:08.3

I'm Bethany McLean.

0:10.0

Did you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed's a good idea?

0:15.3

And I'm Luigi Zengalis.

0:16.4

We have socialism for the very rich, rugged individualism for the poor.

0:22.2

And this is Capital Isn't, a podcast about what is working in capitalism.

0:26.1

First of all, tell me, is there some society you know that doesn't run on greed?

0:30.6

And most importantly, what isn't?

0:32.6

We ought to do better by the people that get left behind.

0:35.5

I don't think we shouldn't killed the capital system in the process.

0:39.3

Back in 2016, John Williams, who is a professor at UC Law, San Francisco, wrote a piece that was read by almost 4 million people, the most in the history of the Harvard Business Review.

0:52.3

It was about why Trump had attracted so many non-college voters.

0:56.1

She wrote, for a month, the only thing that surprised me about Donald Trump is my friend's

1:01.3

astonishment at his success.

1:03.5

What's driving is the class culture gap.

1:06.6

She went on to point out that the white working class resents professional but admires the

1:11.6

rich.

1:12.6

Hillary Clinton, by contrast, epitomizes the dorky arrogance as magnus of the professional

1:17.6

elite.

1:18.6

If you want to connect with white working class voters, place economics at the center.

1:23.6

She concluded her piece with a quote from a major democratic operative.

1:26.6

You are saying exactly what the Democrats need to hear, she mused, and they'll never listen.

...

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