in a properly democratic economy where we have democratic control over investment and production,

we would very clearly organize our productive forces, our collective labor, our planet's resources

around achieving socially and ecologically necessary objectives rather than just pursuing

what's most profitable. Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us, made in partnership with The Nation magazine.

I'm your host, Paris Marks, and this week my guest is Jason Hickle.

Jason is the author of Less is More, how Degrowth will save the world.

He's also a professor at the Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous

University of Barcelona and a visiting senior fellow at the International Inequality

Institute at the London School of Economics.

Now, we've talked about degrowth on the show, I think a couple of times in the past, but often

those conversations weren't so focused on technology and what role technology would play, you

know, in a society that embraced a degrowth ethos, as well as just more broadly, how people who

support degrowth think about technology and its role. You know, are they fully anti-technology?

Do they see that as something that really holds our society back or that harms our society,

you know, thinking about general critiques of the industrial revolution and what has come

out of that period? Or do they seek to embrace technology, but just particular kinds of technology

when they work for society, humanity, instead of major corporations? Now, I won't lie that while I

wouldn't identify as a de-grer, I certainly support a lot of the

ideas behind it. And I think that the critiques that it makes of the way that our society works right

now and the focus on GDP growth in particular makes a lot of sense. So I was really happy to have

Jason on because he has written a lot about de-growth over the years and is one of the people who I often

think to when I'm looking for a degrowth critique of society that I think makes a lot of sense

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