You are listening to the War on the Rocks podcast on strategy, defense, and foreign affairs.

My name's Ryan Evans, I'm the founder of War on the Rocks.

In this episode I'm here with your friend in mine, Michael Kaufman, of the Carnegie

Endowment for International Peace.

Thanks for coming back on the show, Mike.

Thanks for having me back.

Before we get into our discussion, I want to play a long clip

from the latest episode of the Russia Contingency

where you sit down with Rob to talk about some of the operational issues.

It gave us the idea of how effective this kind of counter UAV system can be where they can,

you know, they can drop a lot of FPBs.

And one thing we were talking to a modular of the units

is that we often ask a lot of FPV questions

because we wanted to get his answer on all these things.

I think we mentioned the last podcast,

but he pushed back and said, you know, you're missing the point here, right?

FPV is a part of a system.

And the extent to which we focus on one part of it, you miss basically how it's part of a kind of combined arm system

where FPVs play a role, mavics play a role, fixed-wing FPVs play a role, but

these you know a bit large night bomber drones like a vampire or nemesis systems play an important role and all this together right creates kind of certain effects and all that comes in as a complimentary capability to artory to mines to motors all these kind of things to create a

effective system. It was very effective and cranky to to parshes because Russia had

very few kind of candleized routes Canada to the Marines down there.

...