When Vladimir Putin ordered a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, by all accounts,

he expected his troops to take full control within weeks, if not days.

Four years later, Ukraine's exhausted

military remains resolute. For as long as their homeland sovereignty is at risk, they will not

back down from the fight. From KERA in Dallas, this is think. I'm Chris Boyd. Really, how have

Alonemir Zelensky's forces held out for so long?

And what could be done at this point to convince Putin to drop his illegal campaign to possess another country

and to dictate how NATO extends membership to new countries wishing to join the alliance?

My guest believes the United States must be part of the answer to both those questions.

David Kramer is executive director of the Bush Institute and a former assistant secretary of state.

David, welcome back to think.

Thank you very much, Chris.

Appreciate it.

You have been interested in this part of the world throughout your career, I think even starting when you were a teenager.

So I guess I'll start by asking you to put yourself in the mindset you occupied when Russia invaded in 2022.

Did you have a sense at the time that this war would still be raging on four years later?

I don't think many people did.

And I was in Miami teaching at Florida International University when news came of the Russian full-scale invasion.

And I was at a conference with some Ukrainians, and it was a very emotional point.

And I think none of us knew what was going to unfold over the next four years, but we also felt that the Ukrainians weren't going to give up. This war was not

going to be over as many predicted, including in Moscow, that the war would be a cakewalk.

Ukrainians would welcome Russian forces. And so the feeling was that this was likely going to be

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