Hello and welcome to ETIWI podcast, Voices on the World of Work.

I am Bianca Luna Fabres, communication officer here at the Institute and I'll be guiding you through the podcast.

Today we are recording a special episode. It's the first episode of hopefully a long series dedicated to transfer, the European Review of Labor and Research.

I am so delighted to launch the series with two exceptional guests, Richard Hyman and Rebecca Gumberland-Lakornick,

on a research article that they have written for transfer entitled,

How Can International Trade Union Organizations Be Democratic?

Rebecca and Richard need no introduction, but if you don't know them already, both have written

extensively on the themes of comparative industrial relations, collective bargaining and trade unionism.

Richard is Professor Emeritus at the LSE and Rebecca is senior lecturer at Burbeck University of London.

Right, so let's jump in our very first question. What does union democracy mean?

I think before we answer that, we have to say how we came to that topic. And Richard and I

have both done some work on industrial democracy more generally.

And in our view, union democracy and industrial democracy are very closely linked.

And the one needs the other.

The great English theorists Beatrice and Sydney Webb writing over a century ago

said that trade unions were both the key

instrument of social change and change for the working class and they themselves were democratic

organizations based on the principle of democracy of the people, by the people and for the people.

So that led us to, to what extent are unions truly democratic?

And Richard will, I think, say something about what he thinks of is the meaning.

I suppose, I mean, there's a simple answer and a more complicated answer,

and obviously we need to talk about some of the complexities, but the simple answer would be

...