Pushkin. This is talk easy. I'm San by writer and artist Jenny O'Dell. Jenny's first book How to

Do Nothing was published back in 2019, but it really became a fixture in 2020 as COVID pushed most people into quarantine.

It was in this period that a whole lot of people took solace in Odell's and passion plea to disconnect from the attention economy in favor of quiet

reflection.

But in the aftermath of her New York Times bestseller, a recurring question emerged.

What if you don't have time to spend doing nothing?

Odell, who lives and works out of Oakland, California,

took the question to heart, so much so that she dedicated the following years to answering that prompt.

The result is her new book, Saving Time, Discovering a Life Beyond the Clock.

In it, she investigates the capitalistic forces behind the 9 to 5 work day,

and how our taxing relationship to time

is inextricably linked to social inequities, the climate crisis, and the kind of fatalism

that seems inescapable in 2023.

And you know, that last part is really why I wanted to sit with Jenny in this moment to beat back against that

fatalism as we mark three years since the start of the pandemic and continue as a society to move forward from it.

And so we discuss all of that in today's conversation, but we also talk about the recent regulation

of social media in states like Utah, what it's like to go back

into the office in this precarious economy, our culture of self-optimization and productivity

bros, and then finally some useful exercises she employs to experience time as it

unfolds moment by moment and with, I hope you enjoy this conversation with writer and

artist Jenny O'Dell. Jenny Odell, nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

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