Hi, I'm Lawrence Krause and welcome to the Orisons podcast.

Today's podcast is unique in our experience for a variety of reasons.

My guest, Heather McDonald, is a very provocative and interesting journalist.

And we originally had a conversation in her apartment in New York City almost two years ago.

And the issues she was discussing at a time based on her book called the Diversity

Delusion at that time were provocative as they are provocative today, but at the time

may have seemed outrageous to many people and they still may to some people.

But what's been interesting is in the last two years the public conversation has shifted with the development, the

popularization of critical race theory and discussions of wokeness in popular literature

and mainstream magazines.

Some of the issues she raised then are a little more common and may seem a little less outrageous,

though I suspect they'll still provoke and disturb some people, but that's okay.

But because that was recorded a while ago, what we decided to do was do a second discussion,

more recently by Zoom, where we could update some of those issues.

So this is a two-pronged interview spanning almost two years, one in person, recorded in

three cameras and the other by Zoom.

And I hope you'll find both discussions interesting and the updates particularly interesting.

Heather doesn't mince words and she and I don't agree on everything as you'll

see, but I think it's very important to have these conversations with people even if you don't agree

with them, especially in fact if you don't agree with them. And so this is another example of the

kind of dialogue that I think should be happening. Plus I think several issues she raises are very important and need to be discussed in public.

So I hope you enjoy the upcoming interview or discussion.

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