Welcome to Back from the Abyss. I'm Dr. Craig Hecock.

Today we hear the conclusion of Saj's journey to heal his early childhood neglect and broken attachment.

If you haven't it listened to part one,

stop right here and do so. Otherwise, you will be stepping right into the middle of a very complicated

story. In part one, Saj detailed his years of psychological work, including psychotherapy,

somatic or body-centered therapies, cannabis and ketamine-assisted therapy, and finally MDMA.

Part one ended with Sajd describing his MDMA experience,

and part two continues with Sajz exploring this pivotal MDMA session,

then moves on to his deepest and most difficult work of all,

a high-dose psilocybin session at a treatment

center in the Netherlands. I didn't realize even then that my childhood was so different

from other people's childhood. Since then I have. Since then, you know, when I, we'll talk about

this later, but I've been in Amsterdam, I'm doing some work there and doing

ceremony work there. And the other people that I talked to would say something like, oh, yeah,

I know this place. This reminds me of my childhood. And I would look at them and I was like,

this doesn't remind me of anything. And so it's just like, even though, like, yeah.

In that, that sounds so beautiful.

In that first session, the MDMA session, do you remember the therapist playing much of a key role?

Or was it really the medicine in your inner work?

And they were holding the space for you.

No.

At different points, they played different roles, right? At some point,

...