This is John Batchel.

A conversation with Professor Josiah Osgood of Georgetown University,

his new book, Lawless Republic,

is the story of law and order or Perry Mason or crime and punishment in the late Republic and

earlier empire during the Civil War. And the hero, the protagonist, the actor, who we watch

is Cicero, Marcus Tullius Cicero, born a new man, not elite, not aristocrat, but because he's very good at telling a story,

a great narrator, a great spinner of tales, a silver-tongued. He rises through the ranks.

This is his first big case, a murder case. What would happen to his client if he

loses? And what investigation did he need to do? Remember, there were no police. There was no DA.

There were families, first families, old families, new families, men with money. And Cicero won their attention with his skills.

Here, Josiah introduces us to the risk, the staging, and Cicero.

Much more of this tonight and tomorrow and I.

Josiah Osgood, Cicero for the defense.

Yeah, so this, that's a wonderful comparison.

And Cicero, these trials, I think they would have had all the thrill of Perry Mason or law and order or whatever your favorite criminal justice show is, is on TV.

So the big thing about the courts to keep in mind is there was no public prosecutor.

So that's a key difference between our system and the Romans.

And there was no police force, really, either.

So the lawyers had to do all their own investigating.

And if you determined, you know, somebody had committed a crime or you thought somebody did, you would apply to prosecute. Now, Cicero normally stayed on the defense side, and that's really how he earned favors to call in. But whichever side you were on,

of course, nowadays, defense lawyers need to investigate to defend their clients. But Cicero was good at that.

It's sort of figuring out, you know, what might the prosecution say and how am I going

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