He Believes America Should Be a Theocracy. He Says His Influence Is Growing.

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Ross Douthat, News, New York Times, Journalism

4.2 • 7.2K Ratings

🗓️ 9 October 2025

⏱️ 75 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Evangelical pastor and self-proclaimed Christian nationalist Doug Wilson has been preaching for decades that America needs to reclaim its Puritan past. But in 2025, he believes he’s “significantly” more influential. Does that mean America is closer to Wilson’s goal of theocracy? In this episode, nothing is off limits — even Ross’s own salvation.

Transcript

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0:00.0	From New York Times opinion, I'm Ross Douthat, and this is interesting times.
0:07.0	Evangelical Past, evangelical pastor Douglas Wilson doesn't seem to mind if you call him a theocrat.
0:29.7	I like to see the nation, be a Christian nation. I like to see the world be a Christian world.
0:34.9	He wants a society that acknowledges Jesus' authority over politics.
0:40.0	Marriage and the family were created by God, by the supreme being, not by the Supreme Court.
0:46.4	And patriarchal authority in the home. Wives look up to their husbands as the church does to Christ.
0:52.3	For a long time, his style seemed like a throwback.
0:55.7	But in 2025, he's having a moment in the cultural spotlight.
1:01.0	Is he just being hyped by his critics as a Trump-era villain?
1:05.2	Or does America's religious future really lie in a recovery of its zealous Puritan past.
1:13.0	Doug Wilson, welcome to interesting times.
1:16.5	Thanks for having me.
1:19.9	So we're going to try and talk about some pretty meaty things.
1:24.6	Obviously, your vision for America as a Christian nation. But I wanted to start with a conversation
1:33.0	about some of your theological beliefs. Okay. Because I thought it would be helpful to ground the
1:39.5	audience. Frame the whole thing. Frame the conversation for when we turn to politics. And also, I'm just interested.
1:46.2	Okay. So let's start off with a pretty basic question. All right. We are both Christians. Right. I'm a Roman Catholic. You are a evangelical, but specifically a reformed evangelical. Right. Presbyterian.
2:01.6	Calvinist.
2:02.6	Yeah.
2:03.6	Calvinist would be...
2:04.6	All that, all that, right?
2:05.6	So, our traditions have had some pretty sharp differences in the past, like wars of religion,
	...

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