Hello, this is the Red Box podcast. I'm Matt Shirley. Don't forget you can listen to my

times video show Monday to Friday, 10 till one. It's basically like the podcast, but longer

and more musical bits, but you can listen live on your DAB radio on your smart speaker

or download the times radio app. She can take us with you wherever you are, but thanks

for downloading this episode of the podcast coming up today. Happy birthday, Sahumpfri.

The independent impartial civil servant is 170 years old. Thanks to report that Gladstone

commissioned lots of talk about impartiality, what with Matt Hancock's, what's apps at

Serela Brafman's emails, and of course, Sue Gray. So we will speak to Lord Butler, Robin

Butler, who was Cabinet Secretary for Thatcher, Major and Blair, and Jonathan Lin, the co-creator

of Yes Minister to talk about the survival of Sahumpfri. That's coming up in just a sec. But first,

as ever, we kick off with this. The columnist on times radio.

Yes, as we always do at this time, we have a wade through the news and pulling on their

Welley Boots this morning, not night at the Marit, because Indian Night and James Marit are both

the way. We don't know if they're together. I'm not one to gossip. But I'm delighted. It's a proper

mail slash independent on the Sunday reunion this, because we've all worked together.

Tom McTague now, but it's going to be unheard, good morning. Hello. And Jane Merrick,

policy editor of the AI, good morning. Hello. Well, this is nice, isn't it? All the

old gang, or I don't think the three of us ever will work together, though, at the same time.

I think you did my maternity leave. Yes. And then I think Tom had my job after me. So I'm really

pleased that I gave you up. It's both gave you up to you. And it was the independent on Sunday

shut down when Tom was in charge. So that's sorry about that. It thrived when J.

and I were there had millions of witnesses. Yeah, lovely stuff. Oh, right. Let's dive into now.

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