Welcome listeners to the regular First Things podcast, the editor's desk.

This is Rusty Vrillo. I am at the editing's desk. And with me is Hans Borsma, who teaches theology at the Shoda House Theological Seminary in Wisconsin.

And we're going to talk about his August-September issue essay, Saving Mankind.

Welcome to the podcast, Hans.

Thank you very much, for Husty.

You begin with a paradoxical claim.

Inclusive language, you write.

Inclusive language is exclusive.

Exclusive language is inclusive.

Explain this paradox.

Yeah, it does sound somewhat strange. When you read that opening line to the article.

I certainly can appreciate that.

But it is true, I think, that inclusive language is exclusive and exclusive language inclusive.

Let me first begin by making the main claim of the article, namely that the second one,

that exclusive language is inclusive. That's the main point I want to make. So-called exclusive

language, words like man, mankind, the strict use of pronouns such as he for both men and

women,

that sort of so-called exclusive language.

I argue in the article is actually inclusive

because it includes linguistically both males

and females, men and women.

And, theologically speaking,

...