This is Free Thought Radio with co-host Stan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor, Irreverent Views, News, Music, and Interviews.

Imagine there's no heaven.

It's easy if you try.

No hell below us, above us only sky.

Imagine all the people living for today.

Hello, I'm Annie Laurie Galore and welcome to Freethought Radio.

Free Thought Radio is radio for the rest of us.

I'm Dan Barker.

Annie Laurie and I are co-presidents of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. And this is the October 16th, 2025 episode of

Free Thought Radio, recording in the Stephen Ull friendly atheist studio in Freethought Hall.

Freethought Hall is the national headquarters of the Freedom from Religion Foundation in Madison, Wisconsin.

And Free Thought Radio is the weekly production of FFRF, which has two purposes.

We are the largest Freethought Association in North America, and we work very hard to buttress the constitutional wall of separation between

religion and government as is required under our secular constitution.

And if you are a member, thank you.

And if not, you can go to ffrf.org to find out more information or to join us.

It's ffrf.org. In the second half of today's show, we're going to talk with historian

and poet, Jennifer Michael Hecht, about her newest book, The Wonder Paradox, embracing the

weirdness of existence and the poetry of our lives.

And before that, we all talk with journalist William J. Cole about his just off the press book,

In Guns, We Trust, the Unholy Trinity of white evangelicals, politics, and firearms.

The music during today's show comes from the singer-songwriter Tom Petty. He was born October 20th,

...