Welcome to the Gunplot podcast from RTE's documentary on 1.

This is the third of four extra episodes.

This tape is from the second arms trial and is quite remarkable and will be of particular interest to legal scholars.

This is a recording of what's called legal argument.

That's a discussion between the judge and the various counsel on matters of law. It takes place in the absence of the jury and is not reported on

by the press. This tape was recorded on the afternoon of October the 20th, 1970, and before we hear it,

historian Michael Heaney explains what's going on.

What happened was that the judge basically shocked the defence by announcing that he felt the defence

had made no case that the arms which were coming in might be for the use of the defence forces.

They had to be for the use of the defence forces for the importation to be legal.

And the judge suddenly announced that he was considering withdrawing from the jury

any consideration that the arms might have been for the use of the defence forces.

This would have utterly undercut the defence argument that the importation was legal.

And Tom Finlay immediately rose to his feet and said,

I'm not sure I heard your lordship correctly,

but if you're suggesting that the jury would not be allowed to consider this issue,

this would be entirely wrong. And there followed then a 40-minute discussion in which Neil McCarthy

for Charles Hohe weighed in, as did the state prosecution barrister,

and they tossed it around as to whether a case had been made that the arms might possibly be for the use of the defence forces.

It was a pivotal issue. Ultimately, the judge drew back. Finlay and McCarthy won their point in this discussion.

And as a result, the judge made no direction that the arms could not be for the use of the defence forces.

He left it to the jury. the jury ultimately, several days later,

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