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People and organizations who admit to a problem will often find that a huge weight is lifted,

but they'll often resist this as long as possible. A large Presbyterian church in the South

felt this burden, recognizing that they were mired in long-term toxic traditions and septic patterns that were hard to break with.

It took a group of representative members at a congregational meeting, including an elder father of the church, a coffee elitist millennial, and a working mom to have the courage to

approach the mics and say what needed to be said. We are sick and we can't settle for

band-aids anymore. Sometimes health begins with the prophetic act of truth-telling. Today we are

sharing a recent conversation that Jay and I got to have with Professor,

author, and therapist Chuck de Grope.

And that was a portion from his book when narcissism comes to church.

We are honored to get to hear more of his heart for the church and those who have been

hurt within it.

So join us as we dream together about a world where truth-telling is viewed as beautiful

and everyone has a seat at the table.

I'm John A Harris and this is the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast.

I am all about blessed subtraction.

There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Marsville bus.

And by God's grace it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.

You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus.

Those are the options. But the bus ain't can stop. You either get on the bus

until you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. But the bus can stop.

Hello. Today we're super excited to have Chuck de Groat with us. And maybe I'll give you guys

...