It's really frightening. I think Trump, like all authoritarian, really understands what journalism can do.

Do you bear that in mind in terms of your journalism, that you don't want a court case with Trump?

I mean, you don't want court cases full stop, but that is the worst reason not to do something.

So what is the threat to journalism from the current political environment we're in.

Hello and welcome to ways to change the world.

I'm Christian Guru Murphy and this is the podcast where we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have helped shape them.

My guest this week is someone who spent the past decade running

one of the most influential news organizations in the world, steering it through profound

industry change, digital upheaval, and intense political pressure. Catherine Viner became the first

woman to lead the Guardian in its 205-year history. Under her editorship, the paper has transformed its funding model, expanded

globally, and fought to preserve the idea of independent public interest journalism at a time when

trust in the media is under sustained strain. Kath, thank you for joining us.

Great to be here. If you could change the world in any way, how would you change it?

So I have an absolute horror of sounding pretentious ever, at Krishna.

But this question seems guaranteed to drive pretentiousness, but I will try, which is I think we change the world by providing citizens with good information.

But I don't think facts on their own are enough.

Facts are essential. We need to provide people

with the information they need to understand the world, but we also need to give them ideas and

stories and narratives and sort of human examples for how they can change the world. They can

live a better life, they can bring

hope to the world.

And I think the two things, facts plus ideas, provide hope.

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