Hello there. This is Mark Bauerline with another conversation.

Before we get to it, a word about one of our sponsors.

Located in the foothills of Wyoming's spectacular wind river range,

Wyoming Catholic College, an accredited four-year Great Books Institution is built on the ancient Western tradition of the liberal arts and the freedom of the American West.

The college offers its students an immersion in the primary sources of the classical tradition,

the grandeur of the mountain wilderness, and the spiritual heritage of the Catholic Church.

Students experience the illumination of imagination and intellect through the great books and traditional disciplines,

literature and philosophy, mathematics and theology, science and Latin, and an outdoor

program second to none. The college celebrated an in-person graduation with its seniors last

year and welcomed its largest freshman class ever this year. Learn more about the college's

unique space in the world of American higher education at Wyoming Catholic.edu.

We have here with us today, Neil Gross. He is a sociologist at Colby College and the author

of Richard Vorty, the making of an American philosopher. And why are professors liberal

and why do conservatives care? His new book is quite different. It's called

Walk the Walk, how three police chiefs defy the odds and changed cop culture. That is our topic.

Welcome, Professor Gross. Thanks so much for helping me. All right now, you open with a specific

episode on a spring night in 1993 in Berkeley, California, an incident on the street. What happened there?

So many years ago, back in the early 90s, before I went into academia, I was a police officer.

I'd always wanted to be a police officer since I started high school.

I think there's a myth that people who want to go into law enforcement do so because they

desire control or have ill motives.

I think the research shows, and my own experience,

...