Golden Oldie: Russia Hawks and China Hawks (Robert Wright & John Mearsheimer)

Robert Wright's Nonzero

Nonzero

News & Politics, Society & Culture, Philosophy

4.7 • 618 Ratings

🗓️ 3 July 2025

⏱️ 103 minutes

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Summary

0:00 A brief message from Bob 1:40 John’s upcoming book, How States Think: The Rationality of Foreign Policy 4:31 Is the US to blame for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine? 11:40 Is Putin less rational than John assumes? 24:00 Why John is a Russia dove and a China hawk 31:30 Does China pose a threat to freedom around the world? 38:33 Why John thinks China’s rise threatens American security 49:32 Has globalization made great-power peace possible? 57:54 Should the US defend Taiwan against a Chinese invasion?

Robert Wright (Nonzero, The Evolution of God, Why Buddhism Is True) and John Mearsheimer (University of Chicago, The Great Delusion). Recorded April 19, 2023.

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Transcript

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0:00.0	Hello, this is Bob. Now, by the time you hear this, I will have had throat surgery,
0:07.2	which as I record this is scheduled for the very end of June. So I'm not going to be recording
0:12.4	any new podcast for the next week or two. However, so vast and deep are our archives that I have any number of golden oldies to choose from in filling this void.
0:28.0	Now, today's offering is actually not that old.
0:32.4	It's from 2023, a couple years ago, and by virtue of that, it's actually very timely. It's with
0:41.5	John Meersheimer, famous political scientist. We talk a little about Ukraine, the thing he's
0:47.3	maybe most famous famous for, but it's largely an argument about China. He's more hawkish than I am.
0:52.8	And I think it's pretty much relevant to this moment.
0:57.1	So hope you'll like it. And I will be back in a couple of weeks. Now, in the meanwhile,
1:05.5	please, although I will be suffering from excruciating post-surgical pain.
1:11.3	Do not waste any time feeling sorry for me unless that feeling compels you to go to, say,
1:20.7	the Apple podcast site, Spotify, the podcast app of your choice, and leave a possibly favorable review for the non-zero podcast and give
1:30.9	it five, 10, 50 stars, whatever you feel like. But that's optional. In any event, I will be back
1:39.1	soon. Hi, John. Hi, Bob. How are you? Good. How are you doing?
1:44.9	I'm doing fine. As spring is coming, it's hard not to feel much better.
1:49.6	Okay. Well, yeah, it feels that way here, too. Let me introduce us. I'm Robert Wright, publisher of the Non-Zero Newsletter. This is the Non-Zero podcast.
1:57.2	You are John Mearsheimer. And I think you're getting to the point where you may need no introduction
2:02.4	for most people but just in case you've long been well known in academic circles as an eminent scholar
2:09.8	in international relations and a particularly full-throated and strict advocate of the realist perspective, as they call it.
2:21.0	You've become known more widely lately as a result of the Ukraine war because you have some,
2:29.4	I guess, controversial views in particular that had U.S. foreign policy been conducted more wisely,
2:37.5	there might not be a Ukraine war, for example. And in fact, you said some years ago, you said
	...

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