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Leading Saints Podcast

God’s Grace Reaches Those Who Have Left Faith | An Interview with Matt Miles

Leading Saints Podcast

Leading Saints

Religion & Spirituality, Christianity

4.91.2K Ratings

🗓️ 4 September 2025

⏱️ 57 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Matt Miles is a Political Science professor at Brigham Young University–Idaho and a co-host of This Week in Mormons and the Latter-day Lens podcasts.


Links


Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community
Religious Identity in US Politics
The Latter-day Lens podcast
This Week in Mormons
Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community
Highlights
This discussion centers on a research-backed framework for measuring religiosity, moving beyond traditional metrics to focus on the transformative effects of faith on an individual's life.

Beyond the Three B's: Traditionally, religiosity has been measured by "the three B's": Behavior (what a person does), Belonging (their social connections), and Belief (their convictions). Matt Miles argues that these are insufficient measures of genuine faith.

The Fourth B: Becoming: A more accurate measure is "religious becoming"—the extent to which a person has been transformed by their faith. This concept suggests that true religiosity is not just about actions but about internal change.

Four Aspects of Transformation: Based on his research, Miles identified four universal traits that indicate "religious becoming": Transcendence (a connection to the divine), Humanity (love for others), Justice (a belief in fairness), and Temperance (humility).

Faith and Political Tolerance: The research shows that individuals with higher scores in "religious becoming" are more politically tolerant. They are less likely to view those with opposing political views as a threat, in contrast to those whose faith is measured only by the "three B's."

Challenges of Genuine Change: The episode highlights the difficulty for leaders and parents in discerning whether someone has truly been transformed by the gospel or is simply going through the motions.
Leadership Applications
Leaders should focus on teaching a "holistic gospel" that emphasizes the principles of "becoming," rather than just providing a checklist of behaviors. This encourages genuine internal change over external compliance.

The discussion suggests that the Church is effective at teaching "transcendence" (connection to God) but could improve at teaching "humanity" (love for others) and "temperance" (humility). Leaders can apply this insight by creating more opportunities for members to serve others and develop empathy.

The research on political tolerance can help leaders foster more charitable and understanding discussions within their wards and stakes, particularly on sensitive topics.



The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org.
Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler,

Transcript

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0:00.0

Hey, if you think Leading Saints is just a podcast, well, that's a big mistake. We are so much more than a podcast. We've established online a leading saints community. That's right. If you go to LeadingSaints.org slash Zion, you'll be pushed towards a community online where the discussion is really happening. Sure, you're going to listen to this episode.

0:25.6

You'll get some great tips and ideas and hear a thought-provoking discussion, but the conversation doesn't end there. We go over to the leading saints community and talk further there. You can

0:31.0

make comments, you ask questions, and we'll probably do some follow-up live streams with maybe

0:34.9

the same guest, but a lot is going on at the Leading Saints community.

0:38.9

So check out the show notes for the link,

0:41.1

Leadingsaints.org slash Zion, and join the Leading Saints community.

0:49.6

Hey, did you know that we video record the vast majority of our interviews on the Leading Saints podcast?

0:55.9

That's right. And then we upload it to YouTube because we have a Leading Saints YouTube channel and you should subscribe.

1:02.9

Especially if you're the type of person that listens to the podcast while you do the dishes or work out,

1:07.7

you can put up the video and get the more immersive experience by seeing

1:12.3

my beautiful mug and also the face of the various guests that are on the Leading Saints

1:17.5

podcast. And it really helps us out to go to YouTube anyways, subscribe to the channel

1:22.1

because that helps us dial in the algorithm and reach more people and get these powerful

1:26.8

interviews out to leaders across the world who could benefit.

1:30.2

So go to YouTube, search for leading saints, find our familiar red logo, and subscribe.

1:39.6

In most families, you'll find somebody or two or three who have stepped away from the church.

1:44.6

And that can create a lot of tension in our relationships.

1:47.6

And really, it creates a lot of worry on the side of maybe those that still believe and

1:51.8

who are still religious and faithful and go to church and do all the things.

1:55.5

And they worry that that individual is on a path that isn't going to lead to any measure of happiness.

2:00.8

Now, we know that the fullness of joy to lead to any measure of happiness.

2:05.9

Now, we know that the fullness of joy comes from the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and relying on our Savior and ordinances and all those things.

...

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