Hello and welcome to the Bull Work Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. It's Juneteenth. We have a lovely roundup of some primary source

journals from that day on the Bullork website. I hope you go check that out. Today on the

podcast I'm welcoming back. Fourth time I thank George Packer, staff writer at the Atlantic

here at the cover story for the magazine's big summer issue. Phoenix is a vision

of America's future. He's the author of 10 books including Last Best Hope which I hope we got a little time for at the end.

How you doing, man?

I'm good.

How are you?

I'm doing great.

I've beenged on all your old Charlie interviews yesterday, and I'm overwhelmed with content to discuss with you and

also we have like an apparent mutual it's affection the right word infatuation

interest in Phoenix like we're in the same places at the same time

based on this cover story a few times.

You know, we were both hanging out with the young

fascists at America Fast and you know we popped around a couple of the same cities so I concur with your thesis

It's an interesting subject. Yeah. It's a confluence of issues. I think as I you know read the piece

It's climate which is related to water, which is related to the housing crisis and homelessness, it's all related to our political extremism.

You know, how did you decide to package that all up for the piece?

Well, that was the challenge.

I was told to go find a place in America that would be a kind of microcosm for the big issues in this election and facing the country.

And my editor Scott Stossil said Phoenix.

I didn't know why he said that. I skeptical I've actually never spent any time there before last year and I

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