Have you had any failures, any guys that have gone through your program recidivism-wise that have ended up back in prison?

Yeah, we have graduated like 1,300, 1,400 guys.

Oh, wow.

Of those, we're not able to perfectly track who gets out of prison, but we have almost 30 guys who are professionals in the pet industry, which I'd love to talk more about later.

The only guy I know of that went back to prison ended up back in our program at Cal City.

So he was at Wasco, got out, and then he lost his family in a car accident, so I think lost his kids and his wife.

He fell off the wagon, committed a robbery, ended up back in our program in another prison.

The reason I ask is I love hearing both how passionate you are and the success that you've encountered with taking this, what I think most people would consider

outside the box approach to rehabilitating incarcerated folks. What I am curious about, one of the

things I talk about in my UnFuck America book is the prison system far more from kind of a

general standpoint.

And kind of similar to the approach of dog shelters is it saying, okay, there's a problem, right?

There's an incarceration problem in this country.

You can look at there's not enough penalties, there's too many penalties.

There's not stiff enough penalties.

There's too stiff of penalties. You know, you can look at it from all these different sides. But clearly, you know, if you look at where the United States sits compared to, you know, any other Western society or even, you know, non-Western or second or third world society, you know, we're at this weird level of absurdly high incarceration. And, you know, so I think the simple or most natural question is why.

One of the thoughts that I had, again, in this, maybe it's unrealistic, but just saying, okay,

clearly we've tried all these different things and nothing seems to really resonate other than a program such as what you're talking about.

One of my, I don't know that I would call it a concern, but a thought I have on it is that it's, you know, if you're to look at the prison population as a whole as 100%, what percentage of that population would qualify and be good candidates for this type of program, do you think?

All of them.

All of them?

Almost all.

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