Welcome to the global phenomenon, surviving the survivor, where we bring you the best guests in all of true crime.

Here's your host, Emmy Award-winning journalist Joel Waldman.

I just thought he would have difficulty working with my staff.

Those were the words of Chief Gary Jenkins, the man who rejected Brian Coburger for a police internship

months before four University of Idaho students were murdered.

What's up, St.S. Nation.

Welcome to Survive and Survivor live from Boise, Idaho.

We are the show that brings you the very best guests in all of true crime,

and you are in for a treat tonight going inside law enforcement that was connected

directly to Brian Coburg.

We go inside the mind of the killer, and let me welcome in here.

The former Pullman Washington Police Chief Gary Jenkins, and now the chief, the current chief,

at Washington State University, which is, of course, the school where Brian Coburger was doing his PhD.

And there he is. Chief Gary Jenkins, thank you so much for being here. Just to clarify, once again,

back when these crimes were committed, you were already, I believe, chief at Washington State University.

However, you conducted that now infamous interview with him where he was trying to get work inside of law enforcement,

specifically at Washington State University, but it was going through you as the Pullman

police chief at the time. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. And so did you have a,

did you have a face-to-face meeting with him at that point?

So there were four applicants for the position and they were, all the interviews were done via Zoom.

Most of the, I think three of the four applicants were actually out of state at the time, including Brian Cooperger.

Yeah. And but was it part of the process? Did they have to come in or was this over the phone?

...