Former CIA Operations Officer Turned Novelist Jim Lawler
Intelligence Matters
CBS News
4.6 • 3.3K Ratings
🗓️ 15 December 2021
⏱️ 41 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
In this episode of Intelligence Matters, host Michael Morell speaks with former CIA operations officer Jim Lawler about his years of work on counterproliferation matters and his post-CIA pursuit of writing fictional novels, including “Living Lies: A Novel of the Iranian Nuclear Weapons Program.” Lawler and Morell discuss the similarities between recruiting spies and developing literary plots, as well as why a keen sense of empathy is necessary to be accomplished in each. Lawler tells Morell why he believes the most successful operations officers may have a particular neurological capability for convincing spies to steal secrets, which he calls the “metaphysics of recruitment.”
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | This is Intelligence Matters with former acting director of the CIA, Michael Morel, |
| 0:06.4 | brought to you by Palantir Technologies, foundational software of tomorrow, delivered today. |
| 0:12.4 | I toyed around with the idea of writing one and I didn't do it and I didn't do it. |
| 0:18.0 | And finally I was retired. |
| 0:19.6 | And one of my best friends, Ralph Molot-Larson and I were having a conversation in 2016 |
| 0:26.2 | about the Iranian nuclear negotiations and I said to Ralph, what happens if they cheat? |
| 0:32.1 | And that gave me the germ of an idea for a novel, living lies. |
| 0:41.7 | It was an outlet for creativity. I used to love to run CIA operations and this is as close as I can |
| 0:49.4 | get to doing something, simulating an operation, writing a novel from start to finish is a lot |
| 0:56.0 | like conducting a clandestine operation and trying to guide it and make sure you've got all the |
| 1:02.0 | plot holes filled. Jim Lawler is a legendary CIA case officer turned fiction writer, |
| 1:12.2 | a modern day John Likare. I just sat down with Jim to talk about his first book, Living Lies, |
| 1:18.0 | a novel of the Iranian nuclear weapons program, his coming novels, his career and so much more. |
| 1:24.2 | We'll be back with that conversation after a word from our sponsor. I'm Michael Morrell and this is |
| 1:29.6 | Intelligence Matters. I'm CBS News Business Analyst, Jill Slesinger. If you want your money to go |
| 1:36.1 | further and work harder for you, you probably need to talk to an expert at FASTA. Well, every |
| 1:43.0 | advisor at FASTA is a certified financial planner and a fiduciary and that means they have the best |
| 1:49.7 | training and more importantly, these folks are legally bound to do what's in your best interest. |
| 1:56.1 | They go beyond just the retirement savings investment strategies that you can probably get for |
| 2:00.8 | free anywhere online. Professionals at FASTA provide impartial advice around everything that |
| 2:06.0 | your money touches, new benefits, new home, tax strategies and they do it all for a clear fixed |
| 2:12.8 | fee. Call 888-598-3966 for two months free off your first year financial planning. That's 888-588-3966. |
... |
Please login to see the full transcript.
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from CBS News, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.
Generated transcripts are the property of CBS News and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.
Copyright © Tapesearch 2025.