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The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Forgiveness is optional

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, News Commentary, Philosophy, Society & Culture

4.511.1K Ratings

🗓️ 15 December 2025

⏱️ 70 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

You have to forgive people who wrong you…right? The world is filled with injustice and wrongdoing, and to live in the world — to not be consumed by anger — forgiveness is necessary. At least that’s what we’re told over and over again: By forgiving, we can set ourselves free.But is there a cost to forgiveness? Are we forgiving too quickly and too often? Today’s guest is philosopher Myisha Cherry, whose book Failures of Forgiveness critiques our cultural obsession with forgiving those who have done us wrong. She’s not against forgiveness — that would be weird — but she says we ought to be more intentional about why we do it, more aware that the expectation to practice forgiveness often lands on the most vulnerable people, and more concerned about what gets lost when we treat forgiveness as the only path to healing.  Sean and Myisha discuss the 2015 Charleston church shooting, the legacy of slavery, and the real difference between accountability, reconciliation, and simply moving on. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Myisha Cherry (@myishacherry), associate professor of philosophy at the University of California Riverside, and author of Failures of Forgiveness: What We Get Wrong and How to Do Better. This episode was made in partnership with Vox's Future Perfect team. Vox had full discretion over the content of this reporting. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. This holiday season, your membership goes further: when you join Vox as an annual Member, we’ll gift a free membership to a reader who can’t afford it. By joining today, you’ll get 30% off for an annual membership, and we’ll match your membership. And if you can’t afford it, visit that same link to apply for a free membership through our gift program. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

Support for this show comes from Odu.

0:03.0

Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?

0:09.7

Introducing Odu, it's the only business software you'll ever need.

0:13.9

It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

0:22.1

And the best part, O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms

0:25.6

for a fraction of the cost.

0:27.8

That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.

0:31.1

So why not you?

0:32.4

Try O-D-O-4-free at O-D-O-O-O-O.com. That's ODOO.com.

0:40.8

2020

0:45.3

was a wild year for the tech industry.

0:48.4

AI seemed like it took over everyone's brains.

0:51.1

It was the only thing anyone wanted to talk about.

0:53.1

InVIDIA became the most valuable company in the world. We had some huge new video games. The Switch 2 launched a lot of

0:59.6

people got it. There was just a lot going on. And on the Vergecast, we are talking about the best,

1:05.2

the worst, the most important, the biggest heel turns, all the stuff that happened in 2025.

1:13.0

And making maybe a few predictions about what's going to happen next year. All that and more on the Vergecast, wherever you

1:17.8

get podcasts. This series is presented by Jira by Atlassian.

1:25.9

Hey, it's Sean. I'm just popping in here at the top of the episode to be awkward as hell.

1:32.7

And honestly, to toot my horns just a little bit.

1:37.1

2025 has been a rough year in a lot of ways, but it's been a great year for the gray area. Our listening audience, that's all of you,

1:48.2

has grown by 30% this year, which is huge, sort of unheard of, I think. And that's not counting

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