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rational security, chatter, law fair no bull, and the aftermath.

You don't have an effective system of control on the trade of surveillance technology.

And you really were still struggling to get state agreement on that.

I'm Alan Rosenstein, associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota

and senior editor at LawFair.

And this is the LawFair podcast for May 11, 2023.

The term spyware refers to software that's designed to infiltrate, monitor, and extract sensitive information

from a user's device without their knowledge or consent.

Perhaps the most infamous example of the harm that spyware can do is the 2018 killing of Saudi dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi by Saudi government operatives

who used spyware implanted on Khashoggi's phone to track him before luring him to the Saudi consulate in Istanbul where he was murdered.

But spyware use is not just limited to oppressive autocracies.

It's frequently both developed and used by liberal democracies, a practice that has generated increasing concern over the past several years.

For example, the spyware on Khashoggi's phone Pegasus was developed by NSO Group, a prominent Israeli cyber intelligence firm.

To talk about spyware and its potential regulation under international law, I spoke with one of my colleagues, Fenule Nielin.

Fenule is a regions professor and the Rabina Chair in Law, Public Policy, and Society at the University of Minnesota Law School, where she also directs our Human Rights Center.

But most importantly for this conversation, Fenule is also the United Nations special repertoire on the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism.

It's a position she's held since 2017.

...