Facts Vs. Clicks: How Algorithms Reward Extremism

The David Frum Show

The Atlantic

Politics, News, News Commentary

4.6 • 2.4K Ratings

🗓️ 31 December 2025

⏱️ 60 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

On this week’s episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the upcoming 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. He examines the many actions President Donald Trump has taken that run counter to the ideals articulated in 1776, and considers how the Founders’ constitutional genius may ultimately be what frustrates Trump’s attempt to consolidate power. David is then joined by his Atlantic colleague Charlie Warzel, a staff writer and the host of the Galaxy Brain podcast, to discuss the temptations that come with launching a new podcast and the challenge of serving an audience that often rewards extreme content. Together, they talk about the responsibility that comes with hosting a podcast in a media environment that prizes clicks over truth. They also explore how conspiracy theorists have come to function as an alternate reality of “mainstream media,” and why the fight for truth may not yet be lost. Finally, David closes with a discussion of Edward Berenson’s The Trial of Madame Caillaux and what it reveals about how future generations may come to view our own beliefs. Sign up for David Frum’s newsletter alert. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Hello, and welcome to the David From show.
0:13.6	I'm David From, a staff writer at the Atlantic.
0:16.6	My guest this week will be my Atlantic colleague Charlie Worsell, host of the Galaxy
0:20.8	Brain podcast,
0:21.9	and we'll be talking about our experiences as new podcast hosts.
0:25.9	We both launched podcasts this year.
0:27.7	Some of the temptations, some of the dangers, and some of the lessons that we have learned from this year in podcasting.
0:34.0	My book this week will be a 1992 history book, The Trial of Madame Cayo, a study of a sensational
0:40.3	sex and murder trial in pre-World War I, France.
0:43.7	But before getting to either of those things, I want to open with some end-of-year thoughts as we
0:48.8	conclude 2025 and move into 26.
0:52.5	2026, of course, is the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 1776
0:57.9	and is a powerful anniversary symbol in the American mind.
1:03.6	As we move into this year, there's a strain, there's so many things that are going to be
1:08.1	memorable and important and wonderful to celebrate,
1:16.5	but there are also some things happening that are really weird. And one of the weirdest of them is a press release by the U.S. Mint just a few weeks ago, they are considering honoring the 250th
1:22.4	anniversary of American independence with a set of commemorative or dollar coins featuring the image of President Donald
1:29.9	Trump. Now, it's not literally unprecedented for the United States to put living people on the
1:35.4	coinage. It's not even totally unprecedented for them to put living politicians on the coinage.
1:41.0	The first dollar bill had the face of Salman Chase, secretary of the treasury in
1:45.0	Lincoln's cabinet on the dollar bill. Salman Chase was a famous egomaniac. One of his contemporary
1:51.7	colleagues in the Republican Party said, he's an excellent man, I think that's the quote,
	...

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