From ‘Stop the Boats’ to ‘Build the Wall’, mass migration is the great upheaval of our times, opening a poisonous political divide. Will population movement really tip our world into chaos as the populists and far-right agitators warn? Will democracies have to choose between mass migration or low growth? Are hardliners like Italy’s Meloni or Hungary’s Orbán really cutting migration to their countries like they say? And what does “solving” migration even mean? Just days after Suella Braverman’s incendiary Commons speech and Immigration Minister Robert Jenrick’s theatrical resignation over the Rwanda policy, Gavin Esler looks for answers with Prof Hein de Haas, author of How Migration Really Works. • “Immigration is the price you pay for being a wealthy market economy. That’s the bottom line.” • “Migration rhetoric is a vote-winner but it’s very dishonest… We have to be aware of what politicians say and what they do.” • “The Rwanda policy is an act of desperation. It’s been a huge failure and a political distraction.” Buy How Migration Really Works through our new affiliate bookshop and you’ll help fund This Is Not A Drill by earning us a small commission for every sale. Bookshop.org’s commission helps support independent bookshops too. Support This Is Not A Drill on Patreon to get early episodes, merchandise and more. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices