Everything you’ve ever wanted to know about SAFe and the product owner role | Melissa Perri (author, founder of Product Institute)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Lenny Rachitsky

Technology, Business, Entrepreneurship

5 • 1.5K Ratings

🗓️ 10 November 2024

⏱️ 84 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Melissa Perri is the founder of Product Institute, author of Escaping the Build Trap, and host of the Product Thinking Podcast. She has worked with startups, Fortune 50 companies, and everything in between to help them build better products and level up their product teams. In our conversation, we discuss:

• The history of the product owner role

• The differences between product owners and product managers

• How to transition from product owner to product manager

• The evolution of and problems with the SAFe framework

• How large non-tech companies can improve their product practices

• Much more

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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-owners-melissa-perri

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Where to find Melissa Perri:

• X: https://twitter.com/lissijean

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissajeanperri/

• Website: https://melissaperri.com/

• Product Institute: https://productinstitute.com/

• Podcast: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Melissa’s background

(02:12) The rise of the product owner role

(06:37) Understanding Agile and Scrum

(08:27) Challenges in Agile transformations

(10:41) The history of the product owner role

(13:58) The Scrum Guide

(15:43) Product owner responsibilities

(21:01) Adopting Scrum in organizations

(26:21) The origins and implementation of SAFe

(35:20) Why Melissa doesn’t recommend SAFe

(40:33) Advice for implementing a digital transformation

(49:12) An example of SAFe adoption

(51:27) The value of experienced product leaders

(56:53) Career paths for product owners

(01:04:14) Transitioning from product owner to product manager

(01:06:41) Be careful relying on certifications

(01:11:43) Evaluating existing product owners

(01:16:55) Final thoughts on Agile and product management

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Referenced:

• Escaping the Build Trap: How Effective Product Management Creates Real Value: https://www.amazon.com/Escaping-Build-Trap-Effective-Management/dp/149197379X

• Lean UX: https://leanuxnyc.co/

• Scrum: https://www.scrum.org/

• What is Extreme Programming? https://www.agilealliance.org/glossary/xp/

• Capital One: https://www.capitalone.com/

• The Agile Manifesto: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/manifesto

• Ken Schwaber on X: https://x.com/kschwaber

• Jeff Sutherland on X: https://x.com/jeffsutherland

• Kanban: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban

• What is a kanban board?: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban/boards

• Ron Jeffries’s website: https://www.ronjeffries.com/

• Jeff Patton on X: https://x.com/jeffpatton

• The Scrum Guide: https://www.scrum.org/resources/scrum-guide

• OpenSky: https://www.openskycc.com/

• SAFe: https://scaledagileframework.com/

• Dean Leffingwell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanleffingwell/

• Capital One scraps 1,100 tech positions: https://www.reuters.com/technology/capital-one-scraps-1100-tech-positions-source-2023-01-19/

• Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

• Marty Cagan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• Jeff Gothelf on X: https://x.com/jboogie

• Shruti Patel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shruti-patel-32bb573a/

• Product Thinking Podcast: Mastering Product Focus: Balancing Legacy and Innovation with Shruti Patel: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/9/25/episode-190-mastering-product-focus-balancing-legacy-and-innovation-with-shruti-patel

• Melissa Douros on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissadouros/

• Mind the Product: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/

• Athenahealth: https://www.athenahealth.com/

• McKinsey: https://www.mckinsey.com/

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

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Transcript

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0:00.0	There's this whole concept of SAFE, basically scaled agile, right?
0:02.9	So scaled agile framework came out of the desire to figure out how do we scale Scrum and different processes.
0:09.0	I do not recommend using SAFE.
0:10.9	Every single person I have talked to who, like SAFE, found success with SAFE, they ended up ripping it up and making it into something else.
0:17.7	You've been up close and personal with a lot of companies working with product owners,
0:21.5	scaled agile, and all these things.
0:23.5	This product owner role did not emerge from product management as we know it today.
0:28.1	It was a way to help the developers prioritize what to work on.
0:32.3	I ended up going to a ton of agile conferences and speaking about product management.
0:36.5	And I started to learn that there was this product owner role in Scrum.
0:39.6	It feels like it's growing.
0:41.3	Like more and more companies are adopting this as the way to work.
0:44.8	A lot of large companies turn to Scrum or to the frameworks.
0:47.9	And it's because they traditionally didn't grow up building software.
0:51.7	When you look at Agile Methodologies, what we're really saying there is we want to be able
0:55.5	to move quickly and deliver great value to customers.
0:58.5	If you embrace those principles, you're going to do well.
1:05.2	Today, my guest is Melissa Perry.
1:07.5	Melissa is a legend in the product management community.
1:10.4	She's the author of the foundational book, Esping the Build Trap and her most recent book,
1:15.2	Product Operations.
1:16.6	She's also the CEO and founder of the Product Institute, which trains product managers at all levels.
	...

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