I'm John Batchel with my colleague, Judy Dempsey, the senior scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Berlin.

There is a report I recommend to everybody at Strategic Europe from the Carnegie by Rosa Balfour,

and she identifies the challenge of Ukraine and security and what is to be done.

It is not a straightforward matter because there are 27 countries involved in the EU, headquartered at Brussels.

European Commission, led by Thunderline, is running that operation, chiefly understood as a

trade organization.

But that was then.

This is now.

Then there's NATO, 32 members, including importantly the UK, though the UK does not participate

in the councils of Brussels theoretically or technically.

Now, there's overlap here, and there's no unanimity about Ukraine.

There are dissenting voices in all directions, and that is a challenge.

However, the recommendation is security must be emphasized, and it begins with the recognition that the U.S. has turned its back on NATO or there are other metaphors here.

But in any event, the U.S. under the Trump administration sees a challenge in the Pacific, not in Europe.

Judy, has that worked through the system now?

Everybody's accepted the fact that they need to take total control of European security.

The US is there as an augmentation, but it's no longer the driving force.

Thanks, John.

This is a very good question because it's actually an old issue as well, because under the

Obama administration, we thought, NATO thought, oh, this is the pivot to Europe, Asia.

What are the Europeans going to do? What's NATO going to do? Well, it sort of happened, but actually

NATO survived because Obama and his administration were thoroughly Atlantis. With Trump, you know, we just don't know.

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