My guest is David O'Sullivan.

David O'Sullivan is EU sanctionsctions Envoy, a position he's held since January

2023. Welcome to the podcast, David. Thank you, Paul. Before we dig deep into your role as this envoy,

which is relatively new position, I'd like you to tell us a bit more how EU sanctions policy

fits into the broader strategy,

how the European Union is dealing with Russia, especially since its illegal invasion of Ukraine two years ago.

Yeah, I mean, I think indeed it is important to underline what a kind of existential moment the full-scale invasion of Ukraine was for all of us, I think.

Clearly, we kind of misunderstood a bit what was happening in Georgia in 2008, even the annexation of Crimea,

and that was clearly crossing a line in terms of clearly annexing the part of another country.

But people still sort of somehow thought this was exceptional and could be managed.

And even though we had sanctions, I don't think people saw it as an existential threat.

The full-scale invasion of Ukraine, of course there was the war between 2014

and 2022 and we should not forget that I can't remember now 13 or 14,000 people died. So it was

quite a significant conflict. But again, it looked like a kind of regional issue, border dispute, etc.

And people thought it could be contained.

It was only, I think, really, with, you know,

200,000 Russian troops crossing the frontier

and launching clearly an effort to get to Kiev,

to displace the legitimately elected government,

to take over the country and effectively

turn it into a puppet state, that people realized the enormity of what was happening and

the transformation of the security situation in Europe which this represented. So, hence,

...