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Trains, now on Uber. T's and C's world. I'm John Bachelor. To Berlin, Judy Dempsey, the editor-in-chief of Strategic Europe watching two wars with a third threatened in East Asia

at the same time admiring some of the solutions that have been brought forward in transnational

organizations but not all of them. There's a mixed story at the UN, there's a mixed

story at all of the NGOs now in crisis because of Ukraine War, year and a half later,

and Gaza War, several weeks later.

At the same time, the European Union is a major transnational organization that has a great deal at

stake in Ukraine war and Gaza war.

But, Judy, a very good evening to you. Your most recent essay divides the challenge to the European

Union in three parts. Self-defense Ukraine. Migration, that has to do with the Mediterranean basement, but really a shared burden

in all of the EU of the people who are fleeing or evacuating or moving from North Africa and the Middle East

for refuge or sanctuary or economic opportunity to the global north,

that would be the European Union and three the Gaza War and the

repeated calls for ceasefire the repeated remarks about Hamas as a political

organization all very careful language in many tongues in the

European Union. I begin with Ukraine. You remark that the European Union is not now looking at self-defense in the event that the United

States is no longer the leader in NATO.

And you do remark quite correctly,

with less than a year till the American election,

who is in the White House in 25,

does not determine EU policy for now. How is it that the European Union, especially

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