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This is CBSI in the world. I'm John Bachelord,

Judy Dempsey of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

She is in Berlin. She is the editor-in-chief of Strategic Europe.

And she asks her colleagues a provocative question,

is Ukraine a game-changer for European defense?

That includes the European Union member states.

And I want to go to that because NATO and the European Union are not the same organization.

They don't have the same mission. They certainly don't have the same history.

And you could argue, you could present,

that the EU depends upon NATO for its defenses,

bringing up the European Union to develop its projects into the century.

Is the Ukraine war going to change the way the EU thinks about its role?

And Judy, I do not know these two organizations of the European peace facility.

Nor do I understand it entirely, but your colleague, Raluca Cisnar Taut-Natoni,

a fellow at the Carnegie says that that is an instrument that can change.

How so? What, how would the EU change after the war?

The EU is changing already because it's thinking about upgrading and improving military capabilities,

which is easier said than done.

...