There is these ways of engaging with these tech booms that doesn't mean you have to buy into the logic of, oh, I've got to make a million dollars and be a startup and cash out and all that stuff.

I think there's a way of making choices in this world that people tend to forget that are available to us.

Yeah. Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us, made in partnership with The Nation magazine.

I'm your host, Paris Marks.

I'd like to say thank you to the people who reached out to let me know I was mispronouncing Kamala Harris last week. I will make sure not to do that in the future. So thanks for that.

This week's guest is Chris Carlson. Chris is the author of many books, including most recently

When Shells Crumble. He's the director of shaping SF and a co-founder

of Critical Mass. And the main reason he's on the show today is that he was also one of the people

behind Process World. If you're not familiar with Process World, it was a tech critical magazine

looking at the computerization of society in the 1980s, the 1990s, and, you know, had a few issues in the early

2000s. But as we talk about criticisms of the tech industry today and all of the things that

these major corporations have done to our societies, it can often feel like this is something

that just exists now, right? That we're just realizing over the past little while. But the truth is that

people have been criticizing these technologies and how companies were using computers to increase their

power for much longer than the past five or ten years. And I think that is what is so important about

something like processed world, especially looking at it now, is that we can see

the evidence that this has been around for a long time. But we can also see how so many of the

critiques that were being made in the 1980s and 1990s are so similar to the types of things

that we're criticizing major tech companies for today. It seems like these things are novel

because they

have all this power now and because, you know, the internet has allowed them to expand so much.

But really, these were things that were around much earlier in the rowload of computers as

...