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the Word of the Lord, endures forever. Welcome listeners to the editor's desk, our regular

First Things podcast where we talk to authors who are published in recent issues of First

Things magazine. And I have with me, Erica Bakiaki,

who is going to talk about her April 23 article, Sex Realist Feminism.

Erica is a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy, and she's also a senior fellow at the

Abigail Adams Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Welcome to the podcast, Erica.

Thanks so much for having you, Rusty.

I love the way you set this up, taking us back to Plato and Aristotle.

So help the listeners here.

What does Plato get right?

What does Plato get right? Right. So obviously the piece is philosophical, historical, legal, but what I tried to do is show that Plato and Aristotle get something wrong and they

get something right. And what they got

wrong has been sort of of great consequence, I think, to understanding women. And what they got right

is kind of a way out. So Plato, I think, gets very right the idea of human beings. And I think he's,

you know, includes women in this. We can talk about that a bit,

but that, you know, they're ordered toward excellence. So excellences of soul. And that

excellences of soul are really where we find human excellence. And so he sees that, you know,

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