Welcome to Our Head and House. This is Jasmine Singer. And this is Marianne Sullivan. And we're so happy you're joining us this week. Marianne will be interviewing Catherine Herman. But you said it's not pronounced that way. I'm not positive. I think it's Katrin.

Katrin Herman.

She is a scientist who's working to get animals out of laboratories.

She's currently with the Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing at Johns Hopkins,

and along with Kimberly, Jane edited in an extraordinary compilation Animal Experimentation, Working Towards a Paradigm Change.

I feel like we don't interview, do enough interviews about animal experimentation and the horrors.

Well, you know, we're not going to focus on the horrors.

We're going to focus on the paradigm change.

So I was really excited about this interview. And on the bonus segment, we'll be hearing more of my conversation with

Katrin. And as always, if you're a flock member, you'll get that link to the bonus segment in your

email on the Tuesday after the podcast goes up. You can always, if you, if you've lost that email,

as I would have done, because as I said last week, I'm buried in email and I can't get out.

But anyway, you can always find it on the flock Facebook group.

So not a problem.

If you're not a member of the flock and you can afford it, you can join for $10 a month at our henhouse.org slash donate.

You're making me think of this article that I had edited and published on Kinder

Beauty's blog, which was about whether China still tests cosmetics on animals.

And there was this recent regulation called the Cosmetic Supervision and Administrative Regulation, or CSAR, and there's been a lot of confusion about what it means.

So we published an article on kinder beauty's blog or at kinderbeautcom written by Aaron Hill, who's from the Institute for InViture Sciences,

as well as Christy Sullivan, who we've interviewed several times, who's the vice president of

research policy at Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and it basically talked about

why China still tests on animals, how long they'll continue to, and like what the implications

...