I got mad at this on Twitter because I hate the term defund the police.

I think it's a fundamentally toxic term.

And because I don't think it's toxic because it's unpopular.

I think it's toxic because it reflects the disdain for the state and for democracy itself. The

The I'm here with Matt Stoller returning to the podcast. You know him, you love him.

I refer to him as the king of anti-monopoly discourse. He is the research director at the

American Economic Liberties Project. Welcome back, Matt. Thank you. I'm feeling cranky.

So you're not playing against type today. I see here before. Okay. I know you're getting

just so you know, I have the flu., you're having, and the throws of some sickness.

I have the flu. I am contagious through the podcast. So if you're listening to this podcast,

you're going to get the flu. And I'm sorry. Just apologies.

You might as well listen to it already because you just got the flu. So it's too late.

All right.

And also returning to the podcast as a bad faith guest, All-Star, Alikkar-Kezanis.

You know him as a civil rights lawyer and author, author of Copaganda, which is excellent.

People should buy it and read it if you haven't done so already.

He's also the founder of the Civil Rights Corps and also a police-in-prisoned abolitionist.

So let's talk about it.

My feeling is that I've wanted to get you two lads together for a long time because you are two folks that I find to be irreplaceable sources, resources, to better understand your

respective fields. There are discrete areas where there's overlapping between the two of you.

And at these junctures and in other places, there has been some disagreement between the two

of you that has played

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