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offerings, rational security, chatter, law fair no bull and the aftermath.

Hello and welcome to the law fair podcast. I'm Raphael O'Weeckman. Over the last few weeks,

Benjamin Wittis and John Belinger have both written on law fair about the politics

of the government shutdown and political dysfunctions implications for national security.

Speaking personally, the ongoing collision of national security and congressional

dysfunction has resulted in a collision of two distinct areas of my work here at Brookings.

When I'm not writing on law fair or in law school, I work with Brookings Congressional

Scholar Tom Mann and his longtime collaborator Norm Ornstein from the American Enterprise Institute.

Watchers of Congress for over 40 years, Tom and Norm have written many books about

Congress, co-directed projects focused on election reform, anti-corruption,

and the continuity of government. And most recently, co-authored a best-selling

book about the dysfunction that has made Congress almost completely ineffectual.

In the book, called It's Even More Senate Looks, they argue that there's a mismatch

between the two major political parties in our constitutional system.

The second argument they make is that the Republican Party has become more

ideologically extreme than the Democratic Party. I decided to bring these

worlds together this week and interview Tom and Norm.

I sat down with Tom and Norm on Tuesday as we entered week three of the government

shutdown to discuss the book, the government shutdown, and the implications of

...