Ted Audio Collective

Welcome to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show that takes conflict and turns it into conversation.

I am your host, Dylan Marin, and I am so glad you're here.

I have to say it, conversations with people who hate me the book is in bookstores now, and it's been such an honor to hear from those of you who have read it.

For those of you who haven't, it's an overview of everything I've learned about having difficult conversations from making this show, and if you want it to be.

It's also a field guide on how to navigate those challenging relationships in your own life.

It's available through the link in the description of this episode and wherever you love buying books.

Welcome to part two of our three-part mini-series on conversion therapy, the abusive practice that falsely claims to change people's sexual orientation or gender identity.

Last week, you heard me speak with Garrett Conley, a writer and activist who shared with me how he came to attend Love in Action, so-called ex-game ministry, and how he escaped from it.

Today, I'll speak with John Smith, the man who ran Love in Action when Garrett attended.

As I mentioned last week, this is an atypical story for this show.

I usually host conversations between people who clashed online, but even though this isn't rooted in digital disagreement, the core themes of this project are front and center.

Shame, grace, and the cyclical nature of harm.

Another core theme that you'll hear in this episode is a point I and this show have tried to drive home over and over again that change takes time.

As you listen to my conversation with John, I want you to really hear how long his evolution took.

I want you to notice the painfully slow process that unfolded over a series of years and the many different people and events who lit that path of evolution for him.

Now, I want to share two true things with you.

One, conversion therapy is a harmful practice that has traumatized the many who have survived it, and it has driven others to suicide and suicidal ideation.

Two, the people who ran these conversion therapy centers are human beings who thought they were helping.

Both of these truths can, and I think must, exist together simultaneously.

That they are human does not absolve them from harm they have caused, and the harm that they have caused does not erase their humanity.

A mantra that I created for myself when making this show, and a mantra that I've shared with you before, is empathy is not endorsement.

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